Engineering Influence from ACEC
Episodes
Tuesday Dec 21, 2021
A Conversation with Carey Smith, CEO of Parsons Corporation
Tuesday Dec 21, 2021
Tuesday Dec 21, 2021
We were pleased to welcome Carey Smith, the President and CEO of Parsons Corporation onto the program for a conversation about leadership, diversity in the engineering industry and what Parsons is doing to help Build Back Smarter with the newly passed Infrastructure Investment and Jobs Act. We were equally pleased to welcome our own CEO, Linda Bauer Darr to host the interview - chief executive to chief executive.
Transcript:
Host:
Welcome to Engineering Influence, a podcast from the American Council of Engineering Companies. ACEC's strength lies in its member firms and the diverse set of markets those firms operate in to serve the interests of their public and private sector clients. And it's always great to have the opportunity to bring on one of those firms to spotlight their work and really look at what they are doing to improve their communities and the world around them. And I'm pleased to bring one of those shows to you today.
Host:
I am pleased to welcome to the program Carey Smith, the President and CEO of Parsons. Parsons is a leading provider of technology-driven solutions, focused on the defense, intelligence and critical infrastructure markets. And they've been in operation for more than 75 years. Parsons provides technical design and engineering services and software products to address their customers' challenges, and they have capabilities in cyber security, intelligence, missile, space, connected communities, physical infrastructure, and mobility solutions.
Host:
Now Carey Smith joined Parsons in 2016 as President of the Federal Solutions business. She was promoted to Chief Operating Officer in 2018 and President and Chief Operating Officer in 2019. She was unanimously elected Chief Executive Officer of Parsons Corporation by the board of directors and appointed to the position in July, 2021. Now, prior to joining Parsons, Carey held a series of progressive leadership roles within the defense and aerospace industry. She holds an MS in electrical engineering from Syracuse University and a BS in electrical engineering from Ohio Northern University. In 2018, she received an honorary doctorate from Ohio Northern University for her outstanding contributions to the university and the field of engineering.
Host:
Now, interviewing a chief executive, sometimes it's best for me to take a step back and to allow a chief executive to interview a chief executive. So I'm also pleased to welcome our President and CEO Linda Bauer Darr to move us forward and take the mic. Linda, the floor is yours.
Linda Bauer Darr:
Great. Thank you, Jeff. I'm happy to be back on the podcast. I need to do this more often. You're doing a great job. So kudos to you, Jeff. Carey, we are so excited to have you in our offices. I think this is the second time in the short amount of time that you've been on board as the CEO of Parsons. It's been since July, I think now, right?
Carey Smith:
That's correct.
Linda Bauer Darr:
That you came on board and, it's a pleasure to be working with you. We're excited to have you here. So you're a CEO now - how did that come about? You know, you're an engineer, you're a CEO. What brought you into engineering? And, and tell me a little bit about how you made it all the way up to the top ranks of such a, such a significant company as Parsons.
Carey Smith:
Sure. Well, thanks first, Jeff and Linda, I'm pleased to be here and I appreciate you hosting me today. I'll start off. My dad kind of got me into engineering when I was really young. We had, I have one brother, one sister, he wanted all three of us to be engineers and one of us decided to be an engineer. So I went into engineering and one of my first experiences was working as an intern at LTB Steel in downtown Cleveland, really got hooked on the industry. Then when I graduated college start off, uh, with IBM, which subsequently became Lockheed Martin through acquisitions and had some great experiences. One of 'em I would highlight was being one of the first woman flight engineers to fly with special operations forces. So it's kind of in my blood, I would say. Um, and just an exciting field. It's an opportunity to make a difference.
Linda Bauer Darr:
Wow. That that's, um, there's so much there. I know we have a lot to talk about today in a short period of time, but I would love to just take a second to dive into that a little bit. So why was your dad so infatuated with engineering if he wanted all three of his kids to be engineer? So was he an engineer?
Carey Smith:
My dad was an engineer.
Linda Bauer Darr:
What kind of an engineer was he?
Carey Smith:
He was also an electrical engineer. So I followed in his footsteps.
Linda Bauer Darr:
Who did he work for? What kind of work?
Carey Smith:
He was with Morgan Engineering. So they built cranes for steel mills.
Linda Bauer Darr:
Out of Ohio,
Carey Smith:
Out of Alliance, Ohio.
Linda Bauer Darr:
Okay. And then you said that you were one of the first female flight engineers on a special operations mission.
Carey Smith:
Yes.
Linda Bauer Darr:
What what'd you do?
Carey Smith:
So at the time we were changing analog cockpits over to digital cockpits. So my job was basically to design the display formats. And then when the test engineers, when they were up flying, I was the flight test engineer. So I would sit between the pilot and the co-pilot and I would teach them how to use the new digital display systems.
Linda Bauer Darr:
Do you have your pilot's license as a result of that?
Carey Smith:
I do not, but I'll tell you, I've always thought about getting one.
Linda Bauer Darr:
Yeah. Something tells me that that's not beyond you and probably it's gonna be on your agenda for the future. Um, and then you went from IBM, which became Lockheed Martin. Obviously that's a thing in this business. I actually started out years ago in a company called EG&G that later was purchased by and you know, way down the road AECOM. So, you know, that's my only claim to the engineering profession before I came to ACEC and, um, man, you know, it's, uh, you never know where you're gonna be the next day. It seems
Carey Smith:
Like the that's absolutely true. It's spent a lot of consolidation in the industry.
Linda Bauer Darr:
It's really picking up. Um, that's another that's for another podcast though, Jeff, we'll try to stay disciplined. Um, so let's talk a little bit about diversity and inclusion. I know that that is a passion for you. It it's a passion for me. It is also a passion for ACEC and it's - we have five planks of our strategic plan, core strategic goals. And, and that is certainly one of them. Um, and you know, it's interesting trying to describe to people what ACEC sees kind of its unique lane in diversity and inclusion because we feel very strongly about STEM programs and bringing young people into this space. But, you know, traditionally ACEC has really been for the business of engineering and often focused on the leadership in engineering firms. You don't come in as a leader, you know, you don't come right outta college and become a leader.
Linda Bauer Darr:
It's something that evolves, but we feel really strongly about getting involved earlier on in the game for engineers that are on that track, right? That are on that path to become CEOs. So you are one of very few female CEOs of engineering firms, you an engineer, and that's not always the case. I mean, some of your colleagues are people that came into the profession as attorneys, or maybe they had a business development background. Um, so, you know, tell me a little bit about how you're taking kind of, you know, the, the perch of CEO of Parsons and moving the ball forward for people like you to come behind you and, and promoting that push for diversity and inclusion, which is so important to the future of this industry and this profession.
Carey Smith:
Yeah. So inclusion and diversity is one of Parsons', six core values. And it's obviously very important to me being a woman in, in the engineering field. So when I first joined the company, about five years ago, we stood up a diversity at the time it was called diversity and inclusion council. Today we call it diversity equity and inclusion council. Um, that has been one of the best initiatives in the company with many people, volunteering to participate. It's very active. We have ambassadors at each of our major locations across the company, and we also I will highlight, um, and promote it all the way up through our board. In fact, if you look at our board today, our board is about 40% diverse. So this is truly something that we take throughout the organization at all levels. We measure ourselves on diversity goals and we make sure that we're achieving the metrics. And the objective is really to try and make sure that every employee feels engaged at Parsons and is able to contribute fully.
Linda Bauer Darr:
Yeah, that is, um, that it, it sounds like, you know, it's, it was a, was a seed and it's grown and it's taking on more kind of speed and kind of heft as time goes along. And I met, you know, the way that you set it up, you described having an ambassador at each location, you know, with the company, the size of Parsons. It can't all come from you. I know you have pressure to be everywhere at once, right. At all these different locations, um, to try to kind of share your me message and your passion and your vision for Parsons. So how do you keep those ambassadors. kind of on message and how much do they have, um, kind of free reign to do their thing? How do, how do you package it all together with the company as large as yours with these ambassadors? Is it all these separate locations?
Carey Smith:
So we set up specific goals that we're gonna do as a, at the company level. So a goal might be one year we wanna improve mentoring across the company. A goal might be that we set up enterprise business resource groups. So they're basically affinity groups. And once we sort of have the corporate objectives, then we flow those down to each of the ambassadors. And the ambassadors do have the authority to do what makes sense in their local area, because each area, as you know, particularly in the engineering field is different. It's a lot different if I'm at a facility in Virginia versus a facility in California versus facility in Florida, right. So they can create events and activities that are meaningful to their particular location.
Linda Bauer Darr:
How do you choose who these ambassadors are gonna be? Do they have to represent a diverse constituency to begin with? Or how do you choose them?
Carey Smith:
We let them volunteer. Okay. Um, and we think that's the best way, because if you're selecting people, then they might not really be the right person for the job and might not put as much into it. So we really say, if we have a major site, let's say in New York city, and we have several hundred people working there, we'll have a volunteer on who wants to be the ambassador.
Linda Bauer Darr:
That's great. So we have at ACEC a Diversity Equity Inclusion and Belonging Committee. And I think it's like you, I mean, it started out the concept was inclusion and diversity, and it just continues to grow and obviously belonging and, and equity. Um, you know, with this new legislation, equity is much more important. But one of the things that has been interesting as this concept has grown and our involvement has deepened is how, how do you build the leadership of an effort like that? Because if it only people from, you know, diverse backgrounds, gender diversity, ethnic diversity, age, diversity, whatever, um, you might be missing out on the important buy-in that you need for, you know, that, that fever, if you will, the positive fever of really, you know, promot diversity and inclusion throughout the industry, uh, for that fever to grow. So, you know, we have had, we have, a couple of white men that are helping to lead this effort for us.
Linda Bauer Darr:
It so happens that they also happen to be CEOs of these, you know, some, some very significant firms that have taken this and really run with it. So, um, I would agree with you that, you know, it's the people that really have the most passion, but you need to make sure that it's people that have those experiences having been in the minority in some way, shape or form, but it's also the people that represent kind of, you know, the broader population of that particular industry or profession, because if they're not buying in, then not much is gonna change. So it really takes...
Carey Smith:
And ultimately to me, it comes down to diversity of thought and to get diversity of thought, you need engagement from everybody in your population, regardless of background.
Linda Bauer Darr:
And, and I think diversity of experience, you know, diverse experiences lead to that diverse thought. So we could go on about that forever, but we have something a little bit timely to talk about. And that's the Infrastructure Investment and Jobs Act that, you know, it really has got this whole industry buzzing. We're excited. This is a transformational piece of legislation. Um, I've never seen anything like this in my lifetime. I was born after the Interstate Highway System was, you know, conceived and built. So, um, this, but this is akin to that. It, it it's that big. I know that you all are really embracing the opportunities and you've got your own unique kind of spin on it, a campaign, um, that kind of plays off of the Build Back Better concept, but that is called Build Back Smarter. That's focused on tying traditional infrastructure with technology and innovation. It's great idea. I mean, in a nutshell, it's your grandfather's infrastructure, right? I mean, let's not do it the way that, you know, we've been doing it in the past because society and our planet and, you know, the way people, the digital world that we're in right now, people do things way differently. And so you need to, we need to adapt. And so engineers are leading the way on that. So tell me a little bit about how you all are doing.
Carey Smith:
So we're very, very excited about the infrastructure bill. It aligns extremely well with Parson's portfolio, whether it's transportation, including work that we do in rail and transit airports, ports, the water wastewater also ties into our portfolio - broadband, and even the utilities work we're involved in, utilities, um, work as well. So we're excited about the bill and what it means for our country. Also highlight too, that we're seeing a lot of growth in global infrastructure. So beyond the United States, there's a lot of spend that's being done in Canada, as well as the Middle East. So for pars, it's a really important time for the infrastructure portion of our business, because we're an advanced technology company. We have two pieces of the business. We have a group that is focused on federal government and really develops advanced technology like artificial intelligence, data analytics capabilities.
Carey Smith:
We have some unique uses of drones and we do a lot of work in cybersecurity. So we have the ability to build back smarter because we take our advanced technology capabilities. We apply those to the infrastructure side of the business. So if you think about some examples would be instead designing roads and highways for a 30 year lifespan or bridges tunnels, dams, how do you design them for a hundred year lifespan? You include sensors that can perform monitoring and basically give you better predictability. How do you use drones to be able to do inspection of bridges? How do you apply artificial intelligence to a system that does advanced traffic management to be able to get better predictability on accidents? When things would be cleared up, people moving around more safely, um, use of sensors for things like an intelligent intersection. You know, our intersections were kind of set and they basically didn't change for like three to five years now, post COVID we've got whole different traffic patterns. So how do we use the intelligent intersection so that they change dynamically and allow responders the ability to get through. So to encapsulate all that, it really means Build Back Smarter. Um, this is the opportunity to Build Back Smarter and really design for the future.
Linda Bauer Darr:
I love that. And, um, one of the reasons I love that so much is because it really showcases engineering, right? I mean, people talk about the Recovery Act, you know, during the Obama administration and shovel ready projects. And as you know, that, you know, that's a, that's a red flag for engineers when they hear shovel ready projects, because it means there's not gonna be a lot of thought going into, you know, laying down that asphalt and concrete, this is in a lot of people's views, you know, much better use of our funds because it does promote the sustainability. The long-term project development that you know, is, we're not gonna have to redo, you know, five years down the road.
Carey Smith:
Right.
Linda Bauer Darr:
You know, under having that predictability, having those sensors kind of accelerating our, um, you know, the, the way that we use the infrastructure to promote mobility and, you know, our economic backbone, um, it's exciting. And so you guys are right at the crossroads of that.
Carey Smith:
Yeah. It is really exciting, even, you know, a couple other examples. If you think about airports of the future, how those will be reinvented post COVID, you know, the whole way from the time you get outta your car, you go into the airport, you check in, you do your baggage, you know, you might have integrated health screening combined with ticketing, um, the way you drive up to park, that can all be different. It can all be used of sensors. So I mean, everything in our life really can be reimagined. We like to say at Parsons, we create the future, and this truly an opportunity to create the future of infrastructure.
Linda Bauer Darr:
Yeah. You know, it's you think about what the origin of the need for a lot of this is, and to some extent, I think we've all been spoiled by Amazon over the years. You know, and the easy button, you know, those concepts of, I don't wanna work too hard for it. And in this digital environment, I can just push a button and all this has been calculated. And that entry to the airport is a great example of that. You know, we're all in a hurry. We don't wanna expend a lot of effort getting all the checks, you know, done just for us to get on a flight, um, you know, for engineers to come in and figure out how to do it. That's a great example of problem solving that really is, you know, central to who our folks are as engineers.
Linda Bauer Darr:
So we are getting close to the end of our time here. I think I have a couple more points that I wanted to raise with you, and then, you know, Carey, anything you wanna raise this, uh, course, you know, I'd be, be happy to hear your views on what's going on and what you want us to know about what's happening at Parsons. But you know, you talked already a bit about cyber security and cyber protection of critical infrastructure assets. This is so important. It's important for our nation's safety. It's important for our economic safety. It's important for, you know, the privacy of consumers. You know, and we've, we've heard about so many engineering firms who have, suffered because of the bad guys that are out there. And, you know, they know that without our kind of hands in the middle of so many of these really critical projects that if we are vulnerable, they're gonna find a way in. And so you guys are really working big in that space. I'd like to hear a little bit more about, you know, how you think you all are gonna be able to kind of move the ball forward in that regard.
Carey Smith:
Yes. If you look at the Department of Homeland Security has defined 16 critical infrastructure sectors, and the way we approach it from Parsons is we look at areas that are highly regulated, that are high threat driven in areas that we have domain expertise, because the intersection of those three pillars is basically, um, we're differentiated in those markets. And those are the gonna be the ones that get the most funding as well, because they're gonna be the most under attack. So if you step back and look out at the 16 segments we play in transportation, we play in utilities, we play in facilities area and also in healthcare to just to name a few of the sectors. And what we can do that is unique is because we do have extensive cybersecurity capabilities. We understand, for example, how an airport operates. We understand how a port operates. We understand how a utility company operates. So we're best equipped to be able to provide that cybersecurity protection. And I would say it goes beyond cyber for information technology, because also have the operational technology component. So if you think about SCADA systems or industrial control systems, those were put into those sectors, basically without security in mind at the time that those were designed. So Parsons is able to come in and approach protecting different sectors, both from an IT perspective, as well as an OT perspective.
Linda Bauer Darr:
Right, so you know, it's, you said, those systems were put in place without kind of a consideration for security. They were put in place for efficiency. Right. And, you know, because we were on everything now we want it yesterday. Right. So now we're at a position we're in a position where we're really having to kind of go back and, and reinvent aren't we?
Carey Smith:
Yeah. Most definitely protect things, legacy systems that are out there. But most importantly, design with security in mind, as you put new systems, greenfield systems in place.
Linda Bauer Darr:
So, um, just take a minute, if you will, and tell me about some of the exciting projects you all are involved in right now, if you were gonna say, you know, here is the poster child of how Parsons is involved in innovative engineering solutions that, um, we want the world's policymakers to know about what kinds of things fall into that category for you?
Carey Smith:
Well, so I, I would say, um, starting with critical infrastructure sector, one of our biggest projects would be the LAX modernization program. That's an example of where we're a program, basically, an owner engineer, a program management office, providing support to what is probably the largest aviation infrastructure project that's underway. If I move around the world to the middle east, we're involved in some exciting programs, there, an example would be NEOM, which is a new city industrial city. That's gonna be built on the Red Sea. And NEOM is gonna be basically designed from the sand-up. So there's gonna be a new airport, for example, that's gonna be put into NEOM. We won a program management job there, and we're in the process of pursuing the airport opportunity. If I move around the world a little bit further up into Canada, we're involved in some of the major rail projects up in Canada - Edmonton Light Rail Transit would be a big one. And then on the federal side of our house, I mentioned cybersecurity's a big area for us, and that is to tied infrastructure, but we do a lot of work in the space area in terms of integrated launch, space, ground systems, and space, situational awareness. And then we're involved in some missile defense projects as well.
Linda Bauer Darr:
Wow. That really is a very diverse portfolio. That's gotta be a lot to keep up with it. One thing I'm noticing as you're talking about these projects, all are, you know, big and obviously impactful, hugely consequential, but if I am a 16 or 17 year old, and I'm thinking about going to college, and I'm thinking about changing the world, I wanna look at an engineering that is doing something that I know is gonna make the world safer or make the world ultimately healthier, you know, dealing with, for example, climate change, extreme weather issues. I think these are the kinds of motivating concepts where, you know, the people that are coming outta high school and college these days are saying, you know, how can I, how can I make a difference? You know, I don't wanna, I don't wanna just go to a nine to five job and, you know, sign a time sheet and push around a bunch of paper. I wanna make a difference. So what do you have at Parsons that's going on right now where you think the young people of today would be really inspired?
Carey Smith:
Yeah. So first our motto is we deliver a better world at Parsons. We deliver a world that is safer that is more efficient. And that's true whether it's the federal side of our business or the critical infrastructure side of the business. And what I would say to somebody at age is we're all about creating the future. I was asked recently, well, what company do you wanna emulate? And I said, we don't wanna emulate anybody. We're creating a company that is designing the future, whether it's future or transportation, or the future of defense or the future of cyber. That's what we're about. So I would say to a young person, if you wanna create the future, come join Parsons because that's what we're gonna be doing.
Linda Bauer Darr:
Right. That's and that's exciting who wouldn't wanna do that, right Jeff?
Host:
Absolutely.
Linda Bauer Darr:
That brings us to...
Host:
Well, um, right about right about time, actually, and that was a fantastic conversation. And I think it's a good example of the diversity of the work that, Parsons is engaged in and our, and our industry is engaged in, and for those listening who may not be completely familiar with engineering or, you know, it's that wide gamit of the services, the intellectual power of trying to solve complex challenges that make your lives better, uh, our lives better and also our nation more secure and productive. And, and I think from the conversation, it is, it's a good explanation that Parson is directly engaged in all of those fronts. And then of course it was a great opportunity to hear from two executives on, you know, really with this great opportunity with the Infrastructure Investment and Jobs Act and, and all of this potential that is there because now that the policy is done, we've moved to implementation and that's where it comes into our field to actually make policy translate into something tangible.
Host:
But this is, this has been great. And I do appreciate the time Carey that you've given us. And we look forward to working with Parsons as an active member of the ACEC community in the months and years ahead. And Linda, thank you very much for adding your expertise. And it's, it's always great to take a backseat to allow people who are actually doing things to talk about it. So thank you very much. And again, this has been Engineering Influence, a podcast from the American Council of Engineering Companies, and we'll see you again real soon.
Thursday Oct 08, 2020
A Preview of the Fall 2020 Private Industry Brief
Thursday Oct 08, 2020
Thursday Oct 08, 2020
ACEC's Erin McLaughlin joined the podcast to discuss the newly released Fall 2020 special Private Industry Brief, which can be read here. Erin will be presenting a detailed analysis of the brief during the upcoming 2020 ACEC Fall Conference later this month. More information and registration details for the event can be found here.
Friday Jun 26, 2020
The Buildings We Live and Work In: ACEC Research Institute Panel Discussion
Friday Jun 26, 2020
Friday Jun 26, 2020
This is the second of three roundtables on the future of engineering presented by the ACEC Research Institute. www.acecresearchinstitute.org
The world today is full of extraordinary volatility, yet the engineering industry has risen to the challenge. Uniquely positioned at the forefront of designing buildings for work and home – engineers are solving for the new normal and exploring what is needed for commercial, high-rise, healthcare, and mixed-use buildings of the future. How do we design them? How do we rehab or retrofit them? What is really needed for the future when designing work and living spaces in this new paradigm. Join this exciting panel discussion that explores the future of the buildings we live and work in.
Panelists:
• Dino DeFeo, Managing Partner, AKF
• Peter DiMaggio, Co-CEO, Thornton Tomasetti
• Arathi Gowda, Associate Director, Skidmore, Owings & Merrill
• Kate Wittels, Partner, HR&A Advisors
• Moderator: Joseph Bates, ACEC Research Institute
Transcript:
Daphne Bryant:
Welcome to our second roundtable in this series, The Future of Engineering. A big thank you to our donors who have made this session possible. We have a great group of thought leaders here today that are going to share their insights and expertise with us on the future of buildings, where we live and work now without further ado. It's my pleasure to introduce two of my colleagues at the ACEC Research Institute, Joe Bates, who will serve as our moderator for today's session and Kevin McMahon, who will be monitoring the chat box and fielding your questions during the session, Joe, it's all yours.
Joe Bates:
Thank you very much, Daphne, and thank you all for joining us today. First, I'd like to introduce you all to each of our panelists. We have Dino DeFeo, who is managing partner at AKF. Dino is a respected and admired leader whose market knowledge and passionate commitment to clients have formed the foundation of a 25 year career. He understands the importance of working as an integral part of a design collective with the express goal of realizing the direct client's vision. We also have with us, Peter DiMaggio, co-CEO of Thornton Tomasetti. Peter is responsible for defining, articulating and driving the firm's strategic vision. In addition to leading the development and execution of the overall business plan, he directs key strategic initiatives, such as identifying new markets and merger and acquisition opportunities, as well as instituting mentorship and professional development programs. I'd also like to welcome Arathi Gowda, who is Associate Director of Skidmore, Owings & Merrill. Arathi is a team leader for the company's Chicago's performance design group charged with researching new technologies and recommending integrated environmental design solutions that are substantiated with computer simulation for SOM project teams worldwide.
Joe Bates:
And finally, I'd like to welcome Kate Wittels, who is a Partner at HR&A Advisors. Kate specializes on the future of work and how to best shape places, train people and deliver infrastructure to make today's cities ready for tomorrow's opportunities. She creates strategic plans, public private partnerships, policies, and programs to guide governments, developers, and businesses on growing tech and innovation ecosystems in cities around the world. Thank you all very much for joining us today. I'm going to jump right into our questions. It's obviously no surprise that we're living through this pandemic and it's completely changed the way that we live and work. I think we have all within a blink of an eye, had to create new ways of working and communicating and, and some of the participants and viewers who were with us during the pregame show might have heard us talking about some of those challenges we live with. So my first question, I'd like Pete, to start out with Pete, are we going to see a fundamental shift in where we work in the future?
Peter DiMaggio:
I do. I think we're going to see a fundamental shift. What I think is less clear is what that shift actually looks like. Let me give you my example on this right before Kobe, we have about 1500 people and the large majority of them were working in the office. COVID hits. We send as many people as we can almost close to 1500 to work remotely. And early on, it really looked like as we were learning from this, that we were going to have this situation where more and more people want to work remotely. That was an early indicator. What we're seeing now actually is a lot of people want to be back in the office, whether it's for that social interaction, their ability to be more effective. And I think in the last two or three weeks, and this is how uncertain this future is, what we're getting from our employees is they want flexibility, which is a really interesting challenge.
Peter DiMaggio:
They don't want to be full time at home and they don't want to be full time in the office. And if I had to make a guess, I would think that that is going to be something that stays with us where people want that ability to do some time at home and some time in the office. And it's a really big challenge, right? It's a challenge to get people really effective in the office. It's also a challenge to get them really effective at home, but just think of what this means from an IT point of view, right? How many different computer systems do you have? Do you have monitors? Do you need the right working environment, both at home and in the office? The second challenge that comes from that is again, early on, it's really interesting to see how things progress over the last month.
Peter DiMaggio:
Early on, I think the immediate reaction was we're probably going to need less for real estate for our entire office structure because clearly people want to be at home. Now, all of a sudden we're saying, but if they want to be partially at home and partially in the office, you still need less real estate or do you just need different real estate? So the simple answer to your question is, yes, I think you'll see a fundamental shift, a much more complex question to ask is what do we think this is going to look like? And if you really want to challenge the group, I think it's going to look very different in suburban areas than it may look in urban areas due to the challenge of public transportation. So are people able to do both of these and still use public transportation to get to their office?
Joe Bates:
Kate Pete mentioned public transit. What do you think is going to happen with public transit and you're in New York city. So how's that going to affect people that are working and living in New York city?
Kate Wittels:
Yeah. I mean, it's a big, it's a big unknown about transit, but I think as Pete was starting talking about the mood changes so quickly, if you ask people a month ago, six weeks ago, you get on the subway? No. But if you asked me last week or yesterday and you're starting to hear stories and be like, I want, I'm taking the subway. It's clean, it's the cleanest it's ever been. And so I think to what Pete was saying is that there's going to be this half in half out experience and we're going to figure out how we best travel to the places. And it's really about, what's the role of the physical office in how we work and that's really what we need to figure out. And that will change how offices are laid out, but it used to be that we had to produce everything in the office.
Kate Wittels:
And now we're realizing that somethings that we can produce it's more effective to produce it, the knowledge economy stuff in our home, and maybe having recurring meetings in our homes, but the culture, brand, desire for you know, interaction. And I think as an amenity to employees for retention and attraction, the office will play a role in that sense. And so I think it's, it's really thinking through what the role of the office is going to play for businesses. And then what does that mean for neighborhoods? And then what does that mean for the need for transit? Cause maybe the demand will be actually less or only half of us are going in half at a time.
Joe Bates:
It feels almost like we've let the genie out of the bottle here with having people working from home that in the past, there was a lot of pushback from many companies that were saying, Hey, we don't want you working from home. And now everyone was forced to do it. And somehow they're making it work. So I don't know, Arathi, do you, what do you think about that? You know, have we just let the genie out of the bottle, not going to be able to put it back in?
Arathi Gowda:
I think so in a lot of ways, and I don't think it's necessarily about trust even though maybe sometimes that was an issue. I think it was about collaboration and so engineering, architecture, planning, we're very collaborative disciplines. And so there was always this idea that you had to have the groupthink in the office. And I think obviously now as Kate was mentioning some of the things that are a little less efficient remotely, but people are seeing that actually we can be very collaborative in our home environment. And I think this is actually very positive because we've been talking about that for a long time. There's an emissions reduction, there's a positive, personal benefit. There's a lot of good things that are happening or silver linings as a result of this. But we almost needed to have the push. And I think that does speak a little bit to what Peter was saying about, there's a little bit of a multiplicity of futures, but let's face it. We're a complex society and we'll, we'll keep going the way we were going if it's working and this has forced us to maybe shift faster. And I think in a good way as we're all seeing there's some benefits. I don't think we're going to go Back to the way we were.
Joe Bates:
Dino, any thoughts on this?
Dino DeFeo:
I think everybody has some good points. You know, you start thinking about what is the role of the office and in our environments. And you know, it has a huge impact on the culture of your firm, your interactions in the office, how you work with one another, your collaboration, but nowadays with the tools you have online and the collaboration that you can do online, it will change the way we work. And you will start seeing some more decentralized offices in headquarters might not be the size they used to be anymore, but you still might need the office space for more of a a collaboration area or a conference center, you'll see more hoteling, all the things that we've been talking about for years, this has really accelerated that.
Dino DeFeo:
And I think it's going to continue to accelerate and things are going to be like this until there is a vaccine. I mean, a lot of people won't be comfortable coming back to the office until that's the case. So until then, you know, we're still going to be experimenting with the conditions that we're in and seeing how things work and what doesn't work.
Joe Bates:
So Dino, I have one thought on that sort of a follow-up question for you, maybe dive a little bit more deeply into this issue of there's this near term, of course, but and then let's, let's assume we're going to have a vaccine and, and everybody is able to return to some level of normalcy, but what's the long-term implication on how buildings commercial buildings will look in the future. This pandemic will, I think be fresh in everyone's memory for a generation at least to come. And so what kind of design considerations will we need to make in terms of health and safety, you know, cleaning the offices, elevators, things of that nature?
Dino DeFeo:
Well, I mean, you know, we're an MEP firm, so, you know, I could just stick to some of the things that we've been dealing with in, with our clients on the MEP side, you're starting to look at buildings that are going to be much more robust in engineering infrastructure. We've spent a lot of time looking at the energy efficiency of buildings and we're going to start spending more time looking at the wellbeing of the occupants of the building. And there's going to be a push and pull there. There's still the energy codes we're going to have to comply with, but a lot of things that we'll have to do to make people feel comfortable with coming back post pandemic and let's keep in mind, this is not the only pandemic we've been through.
Dino DeFeo:
This is the worst by far, but we've had SARS and a number of others. And every couple of years, it seems like there's something else that we're talking about. So the infrastructures of these buildings will have to be much more robust, much more flexible, you know, greater ventilation rates, greater air changes, higher humidity because we're finding that, you know, humidification is great for the wellbeing of the person, regardless of during pandemic or not. So all of these things impact the energy efficiency of a building. So we will try and we will need to figure out how do we balance the wellbeing of the people within the building, and yet still comply with the energy efficiency mandates that are being required of us. So that's kind of where we're going to, we're going to have to be whether it's UV lights that we're adding into systems, greater filtration, decentralized systems, you know, there's going to be a number of challenges on you in the engineering world in order to make people feel more comfortable with how buildings are performing and how they're protecting the people within the building.
Joe Bates:
Arathi, what about the elevators? We were talking about that before we went live here, are we going to have, you know, elevators that are 10 times the size as they are now? Or are we, how are we going to move thousands of people up and down? You know, these high rise buildings?
Arathi Gowda:
Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, there might be some things even to Dino's point, there, there are things in the market that are already stacking elevators and others that increased capacity. But I think, you know, we haven't been able to always sell those on projects. So I think what's going to happen is these things that were harder sells before are going to become better or easier sells now. So this nexus of energy and wellness, particularly to elevators, you know, I think it's, it's touchless, it's called button sensoring, it's stacked elevators. I think there's also maybe a reality of a public health response. So by nature, these are more confined spaces. And what would be more like Asia, you know, look to our Asian friends and say, they're very used to masks. It's not an issue for them to wear masks or wear gloves.
Arathi Gowda:
Because some of those things can't be solved strictly with social distancing, but I do think it's a very important time. And even in the environmental movement, it's always been planet first and not people. And there's been a real problem with messaging with that, that mentality, because of course we know the eight ball is energy efficiency, carbon reduction, but until we connect that to stories that people can relate to, then it's very hard to change hearts and minds. And I think that this piece of wellness it's very relatable, people can understand. So I think there are going to be some very important conversations in the engineering community about how we can do the things we've been even talking about humidity for years and advanced filtration. And we're building on that with code policy and rating systems. These are not always things that our clients opt into. So I think there's a lot of opportunity for us to be asked to do those things more consistently have the cost of it dropped so that it can become more ubiquitous in the market, which is essentially what we want.
Kate Wittels:
I think what's interesting about this right now is this is an opportunity for building owners to become really creative and force them to really differentiate themselves and try the new systems that they we've been talking about and pushing for them. Because now buildings aren't just competing with other commercial buildings in their own sub market. They're competing with other sub markets. They're competing with residential products, they're competing with retail products. People are working out of restaurants now. And so I think this is a real interesting opportunity for what the building will actually offer in the long run to make companies want to continue to pay rent and to make employees want to come back in. I mean, you can offer up that you're going to have better air in your office, then you are in your home for example, or sound quality or other things. That's, that's where the building would have the opportunity to really keep, keep their asset as it is.
Peter DiMaggio:
I think that's such an important point. I, you know, as Kate was talking, it struck a nerve. If you think back to September 11th to 9/11 when, when that event occurred the first response was we're never going to build high rise buildings again, right? People aren't going to. And so of course that's not what happened, right? So it took a while. And then people started talking about how do we address this issue? And then people got creative and then people started to figure out how to build security. And, and one of the questions I just saw in the chat - what happens to existing buildings that aren't ready? You know, this was a really good example. People upgraded those buildings, they invested in them, and then they use that to try to draw tenants back in. And the big difference I see now is we're only a few months into this and already you have some of the smartest people on the planet talking about how do we solve this issue and get back to work.
Peter DiMaggio:
And to me, that's one of the biggest differences. It took us a long time after 9/11 to say, we're going to go back into a high rise building. How do we address this now? We're saying, and, and again, look, the first month of COVID people were staying in the office is that nobody's ever going to go back when, and I though the speed at which the design community has started to attack this problem to me is a really positive thing. And so I think, you know, to the point of how much is it going to cost and what are people going to do if groups like everybody on the phone, right? Even people listening in are already starting to try to solve this. I'm really excited to see where this ends up because we're not stuck on the problem. We're already talking about the solutions.
Dino DeFeo:
This is going to be a balance. I mean, there's going to be so many different solutions that are kind of come out of this to your point. I mean, there are a number of different ways to tackle this and whether it's you know, office space, that's spread out a little bit more, you're going to have social distancing within the office. You're going to need that office space to, in order to keep people. I mean, we used to talk about densification. We did a tremendous amount of studies about how many people we can put on a floor. You're not going to have that anymore. That's not really going to want to be what people want to do. So office space is going to be a necessity a long time. It's not going away. So it's a matter of, I guess the question came in. What do you do with the older building stock? We're going to have to figure out how to convert those buildings. So people feel comfortable again, just like after 9/11, just like after Sandy, you know, things are going to be different, but things will be, you know, we'll still need those that office space.
Joe Bates:
I want to come back to that issue and question in just a few minutes, but first Kevin, do we have any questions from the audience on the topic of the buildings that we live in our buildings that we're working in?
Kevin McMahon:
Yeah, we do. Joe. We have a couple of really good ones. The first one is about what we've been discussing. And the question is how much of the effectiveness working remotely is due to the fact that we know our colleagues. when we got put into the situation there, the audience members asking, what strategies would the panel recommend for bringing new team members into the group, collaborative culture effectively while they're working remotely?
Dino DeFeo:
I could start with that because we actually hired people pre pandemic and they started post pandemic. So it was a matter of introducing them to the people who they were going to be working with via something similar in zoom or via teams. And it's a daily and sometimes multiple times a day collaboration with them. And it's a challenge to make sure that the culture of the firm you're imparting that on new people. And we're going through something now where we're bringing EIT and interns in. So we're also working with our interns and it's again, multiple touches a day and making sure that they're, they're getting the education that, that, you know, we promise them and that they need as they go back to school. And also for the EITs that we're starting to culture and then starting to introduce the culture of our firm to them from the beginning. So you have to work with them daily, you have to make sure that they have someone who is their partner, that they can reach out to with any questions, but you have to make sure that there's a connection back to the firm consistently.
Kate Wittels:
I think, you know, we've talked about mentorship and collaboration and kind of those types of things are just going to have to happen even more so. And I think that's great, right? We, not, every firm really prioritizes mentorship and now it's going to happen and it's going to happen across offices. I think you'll actually get to know more people than you would of just the people that were within your team or on your, on your floor now. And so that's an exciting opportunity.
Peter DiMaggio:
And I think that that point that Kate has made is even more powerful if you are a very diverse spread out organization. So we have 50 offices. And so it's clearly more difficult for us when we onboard somebody now in that local office for all the challenges that come. But one of the things we've been really successful with is building a culture between offices. We've gotten very good at this kind of a call and getting to know people in the old days, what would happen is you'd be in your local office and everything would be on a voice, a conference call. And I don't know how everybody else feels, but I like it this environment so much more than the non facial conference call. And we, I think we build culture and get to know each other. So this Zoom call has been a clearly a challenge, but I think going forward, it's something we're going to use. We're talking about, you know, trying to keep the carbon footprint down, having a lot more meetings in this environment and being able to bring more people into those meetings rather than flying them from 50 places. So I think there's an opportunity to really take advantage of it.
Joe Bates:
Kevin do we have any other questions on the buildings that we work in before we move on to the buildings where we live?
Kevin McMahon:
Yeah. This is an interesting question, Joe. It's about the cost of, of the existing buildings in many cities that require retrofitting. And a lot of these retrofits may become too expensive and cost prohibitive. What will happen to these buildings?
Joe Bates:
Arathi? Do you have any thoughts on that one to start us out with?
Arathi Gowda:
I think we were talking about it or touching on it a little bit or, but I think obviously there's a lot of fun costs and we know the real estate market is, I mean, this is a, and one of the biggest financial engines and hard to move slow to move and change, but that makes, I think all of us believe that no, we are not going to abandon these, which is a good thing from a carbon sink perspective. And I think the technology is all there. And many people touched on that already in the panel, but there are a multitude of retrofits that are already starting to happen. I think at som we have a getting back to work plan. I'm sure Kate, you know, Peter has similar words, you know, we're looking at different things. How do we space out?
Arathi Gowda:
How do we have shifts? How do we have advanced filtration? How do we have flush out? How do we have twice daily cleaning? And you know, again, those aren't cost prohibitive measures for people to undertake. It's not talking about a whole a to upgrade or change. It's about how much extra outside air can we bring into this space. So and when we can in a certain space how do we socially distance more you know, and think about those other, other issues. So I think people are being very flexible, which is quite interesting as we get back into this space. And again, thinking, not build new, but how do we, how do we work with what we have, which is, is really important.
Dino DeFeo:
Yeah, the solutions are not a one size fits all. You're going to have, you know, air handler, retrofits
Speaker 6:
And upgrades that are going to be relatively inexpensive and some that are going to be very expensive to do. But, you know, let's be honest. The building stock is very expensive. Leases are very expensive. And if in order to attract people and charge the leases that you're charging, you're going to have to ensure that the occupants of the building are safe. So it's going to be probably something that is going to be demanded of landlords in order to make their building stock of value. So I think there's going to be ways to afford it. And as technology gets more affordable, it's going to be easier and easier to do.
Kate Wittels:
I also think there's going to be a lot of adaptive reuse. I mean, we're going to see, we were seeing a mix of uses that before this people wanting to live closer to where they work, people wanting to have more options. And so for some buildings that can be adapted really just because, and they can't be easily upgraded. They're going to turn into residential or they're going to turn into some other function. And that's just how we're going to continue on to live.
Joe Bates:
So what I'm hearing is we're gonna be doing a lot of retrofitting and not, not whole scale demolition of city blocks and making new buildings. It's just too expensive. I'd like to now turn to the next topic that we're going to discuss, which is the buildings in which we live, obviously we've started working from home, but what kind of w what kind of considerations are we going to have when it, when it comes to where people are living, making those buildings more healthy, especially multi-dwelling buildings RFP, do you have some thoughts on that one?
Arathi Gowda:
I think this is again, it's a, always listening for the glass is half full, but I think this is again, another opportunity in a market that's been really tough. So, I mean, when we look at the history, the historic trends of energy efficiency residential is the lowest in this country and globally even in multifamily housing. And why has the lowest energy efficiency? Well, it follows the cost. It's the lowest cost per square foot. And I think of course, right now everyone's rethinking. I mean, I personally am rethinking, why did I get that parking space when I do own a car, because I'm a greenie, why didn't I get the balcony instead? But it was resale value, right? And so those of us in cities are thinking about options like that. But I think people, again are thinking more about space gardens, other features that had people historically in the suburbs.
Arathi Gowda:
But I think it will again, drive up what the cost per square foot is that people are willing to invest. And what they're willing to invest in, which I think is very positive because they've gotten to this is the biggest investment of most Americans' lives. And it's very, very commodified in a way that's not good for health and it's not good for carbon either. So again, looking at this health and energy carbon nexus I think there's a lot that people are rethinking now. And I don't think that it's going to mean you know, an exited to the suburbs. It might be, people are looking at different kinds of cities where they can afford a little bit more space. It might be, again, it's not the parking spot anymore. It's something else. Or maybe it is the car because now I can move around. But I think people are thinking about it in a much more nuanced way than historically just bigger, bigger, bigger, bigger space, which was the, usually the driver.
Joe Bates:
Yeah. It seems like there's been this sort of initial knee jerk reaction of we're going to get outta here or we're moving out to the country. In, in my neighborhood, I live on a mountain and the Blue Ridge West of DC and four brand new houses have gone up in the last four months. So highly unusual. What, what do the rest of you think about that? You know, is this just sort of an initial reaction that people are going to leave the cities? Or are we, are we going to adapt and how?
Peter DiMaggio:
I'll jump in on that? I think one of the most interesting things about the cities and this may be, even appear off topic, but I don't think it is, is, is how much of the cultural institutions people come back to whether it's sporting events or Broadway or restaurants or bars or whatever you can think of. In a lot of ways that has been something that has drawn lots of people into the city, right? And so if that comes back and it comes back powerfully, I think you're gonna see a lot of people stay. And then that, to my original point, if people really want to spend some time in the office, they are also going to need to be, and those offices are in an urban environment. They can't really move so far to the country, which is why I think originally when we started talking about everybody's gonna move to the country, that was a knee jerk reaction to, I can work from home.
Peter DiMaggio:
If I can work from home, I don't need to be near my office. And I think people are rethinking that because they don't want to be so isolated. So I, I think it's a combination of, do you want to spend some time in your office, which I think the answer will be yes, for most people. And can we get these cultural institutions that have really, in my opinion, made our cities what they are, if we can get them up and running safely, I think you're going to see that, that draw to be in a city again, to that nine 11 quote, I think 10 years from now, we're still going to want to be in our urban environments for the same reason we want to be there now. So I think it will come back around what it looks like and how fast we get there. I'm not sure.
Dino DeFeo:
Yeah. To a, to Joe, your point about the homes being built. I've already heard a couple of stories in my area of bidding Wars for homes, which is, you know, unusual in the suburb of New York lately. I mean, we used to have that years ago, but not for quite some time. So we're starting to see that, but I, you know, I, I do, I do agree with Peter. I think you're going to start seeing people want to come back and just the, how long will that take? I mean, if we go through another pandemic, would you rather quarantine in a 500 square foot apartment without the balcony? Or would you rather quarantine in a 2,500 square foot house with a backyard? And maybe if you have a spouse who works two offices built into the house as well it's going to be a, it's going to be a little bit of a balancing act. And I think if, if you can work from the office part time, like we were talking about earlier, you might choose to move a little further away from the city, knowing that you're not doing that long commute every day. If you're doing it a couple of days a week or three days a week, you might be willing to sit on the train for longer than to, than to be close to work.
Kate Wittels:
I think this is a call for cities to work with their regional partners. There's been a long time of a us versus them, right? You want to keep the residents or the office workers on your side of the border and retain the taxes. And I think this is really now about a regional approach to to how we're going to be living. So it's not New York city. It's the New York city MSA and living in the Hudson Valley and working, you know, coming into New York city twice a week, instead of five times a week, it's all going to seem like we're all part of the same same community. And we need to work together more.
Joe Bates:
Kevin what, what questions do we have on this?
Kevin McMahon:
We have a great question that ties right into this discussion. Does the panel see more use in high rises of residential and commercial cohabitating becoming part of the same building, you know, leveraging the efficiency of elevators and heating and air conditioning systems addressing some of the panels that comment
Kate Wittels:
For, for a long time, I always was saying that office was going to become an amenity of residential and every tall office tower was going to have two floors of coworking in some sense. And you, you would subsidize that off some sort of check from your employer to work out of that for a couple of days a week, or what have you. And I think that office offering is going to be more and more offered in the residential products, especially the high rise, dense residential product. You don't have to get a bigger apartment, but you have a floor go to when you want to get away from your children.
Joe Bates:
Kate, I want to follow up with you on that one. Again, I'm, I'm sort of talking from the perspective of the DC area out in the suburbs. We have a lot of mixed use planning going on where, you know, it's required now to have retail in the bottom and apartments, condos up top. And, and the idea is that it will reduce traffic, et cetera. And it's not, you know, we're just seeing people who are, you know, they're still moving to the suburbs, but then they're working in DC and still have to commute. And there's just a lot more traffic going cross-ways every which way. You know, what are your thoughts on that?
Kate Wittels:
I think DC I mean, it's congestion, do you see as that people need to be getting out of their cars more and having more public transit options than just what the Metro is providing. Right? I think there's a example that people want to go places. We have to figure out how to get them more there, more efficiently without the congestion of single person vehicle travel.
Joe Bates:
And that's going to be a challenge, especially in the near term, at least because the CDC is saying, hey, drive, drive a solo now.
Kate Wittels:
Yeah, I think what's be interesting is bus. I think the advent of bus rapid transit and where, how we're going to be using buses differently is going to be really, really interesting.
Joe Bates:
Yeah. I saw a photo of a bus where they're, you know, they tape off various seats and the untaped seats you can sit in. So there's this weird, you know, social distancing thing going on. What do the rest of you all think on this question that Kevin proposed?
Peter DiMaggio:
I think for what it's worth from my side, I think you, you touched on one, that's absolutely critical caked in, and then you mentioned that, which is the public transportation system. And for many, many years, we said, it's going to work well, if there's a great public transportation, as far out as that goes, that's how far people will move. Right? So if the train line goes out 50 miles, people will be 50 miles out, 70 miles. And I think it's going to be really interesting to see how people respond to public transportation. The exact opposite is what's happening in our offices right now. We have 50 of them. So we have all these different kinds. The places where people drive to work are filling up very fast because they don't have to deal with that, that danger or the potential exposure. So it's an odd mix of the places where we don't have public transportation or working very well to get back in the office. I don't think that's sustainable. I think ultimately we'll figure out a way to safely transit and then, then we'll get back to where we were. But however long that takes and that's a tough challenge to, to keep the public transportation to some ways, for instance safe. That's why I think we're seeing in New York, which are very slow movement to come back to the offices.
Speaker 6:
Well, that is the issue. I mean, for, for our firm, I mean, we we've, I like all of us, we've probably sent out surveys to our staff to figure out what are some of the key drivers. And, and one of the ones that keeps coming up is public transportation. So that's why we're moving very slowly with bringing people back to New York, but our other offices are coming back much more quickly because they are suburban suburban offices for the most part they commute via or bus, or it's a little bit easier. A lot of people are in their own car. But Boston, New York, Philadelphia, where they're taking more mass transit again, it's coming back much more slowly. So we'll have to figure out how to do that safely. And and ms. Strategy is going to have to be a part of that equation.
Speaker 6:
And remember that's out of our control as office leadership, right? As, as from leadership, we know we can, we can really have pretty good control what's going on in our offices and we can work with our building management to even have pretty good control of what's going on. If we're a tenant, once you get outside of that and people control their own home environment very well. It's that piece right in the middle of that you know, Kate, you mentioned something that struck a nerve partner and you, you mentioned that on a regional level, I think we're going to have to really partner with, with the mass transit systems and the public transportation systems to, to solve this problem collectively. And I think we said it earlier, the subways have never been cleaner. I forget who mentioned it. Yeah. But you know, that's because there's not much use right now, you know, once we started having more people on the subway, so it'll be clean less frequently, there'll be more cars that are out in service at any given time.
New Speaker:
And it's going to be, again, something we're going to have to help manage, because it is a key driver to getting us to where we need to go. Yeah. I mean, there is some collectivism in here as to how we behave as a society that I think, again, it's out of our control a little bit, but I mean, not, not so much, I think individually we add up. And that's why I did say, like, if we look at our Asian friends in the beginning of this, the first question, I think how they behave in a very organized and very dense places you know, Hong Kong after SARS, they completely changed their mentality and they're in a completely different situation now. And again, it wasn't just the engineering community that responded is the public health, but it was also just the general public in terms of not having an emergency aversion to math, you know, using their elbows for buttons, if they didn't have gloves, you know, just, I think they're a little behavior modifications, as we said, that we'll all get used to.
Speaker 5:
But they do have that, you know, they've had a long mentality needed to have you know, live work half rezzy, half office towers. And you know, that wasn't necessarily a commentary like, Oh, I may about mixed use and I'll go to thing. There was a commentary about speculation in the real estate market. Like let's make sure the column spacing, the engineering can convert because we're building these cities so quickly. So I think there is something in that too. That's really it's very optimistic and it's about, you know, if we build it, people will come. And that we shouldn't, we should kind of borrow from that mentality to how do we engineer buildings that can be very flexible, you know? Kay. You had that great example too about you know, Rezi flexibility with office floors. But again, like how do we, how do we design ultimately very flexible spaces that can last a long time?
Speaker 6:
Certainly with RCI. Yeah, I was. I'm wondering if you have any specific examples you can share with us that you're aware of. You mentioned, you know, the SARS outbreak and what types of engineering changes were made, or is there anything that you, you know of that you can share with us?
Arathi Gowda:
Well, there were changes to their their wind code essentially. So they have one of the most aggressive code standards and people are following it around the world in terms of not just wins and the public realm that would blow people over, but also about contaminant control. So these are things that it's like being a good neighbor because one of the contamination points was in the vent stack of two adjacent rez buildings. So it was a plumbing stack. There was a re entry point. And so they were wondering like, it's not just a tooth, but it's also, if there's something in that vent stack going wrong, that you can contaminate amongst floors. But you know, again, it's even Peter, you had mentioned that it's, it's not just our disciplines, but there were many other responses from the public health departments, how people change their behavior. And certainly we have a very big contribution and particularly in dense environments, because there are a lot of engineering control points that could facilitate better health management
Peter DiMaggio:
Joe, to your point. I think there have been so many unbelievable advancements in fluid mechanics, which might be a strange question, but our ability to model how particulates move around and environment, and it came from the fire industry was doing work and the blast resistant design community was doing work like this ability to model really high end modeling of how people interact and how fluids interact with people really does exist today in a way that it didn't exist five years ago. So we have the capability, the question is, do we want to use it and adapt it and really go in that in that way, because I think we could really solve this problem on a technical level where at least address it in a way we couldn't previously.
Dino DeFeo:
Well, actually to that point, we are doing that already. A number of higher education institutions have reached out to talk to us about the way they use their classrooms and the placements of students with the air distribution and the air flow across those, the students in there, the people using a room so that they understand that there's a, there's a, an airflow. That's not hitting every single student. You're trying to space them out so that the separate airflows hitting separate groups of students. So you're not contaminating everybody in one shot. So you're already starting to look at the computational airflow in a, you know, in an auditorium or a classroom to see the impacts of having 10 students, 20 students, a hundred students, depending on the size of the room. So it's something that people are looking at and it's a, it's guiding their, the way they're bringing the kids back to school.
Joe Bates:
Kevin, what other questions do we have on this subject?
Kevin McMahon:
You have a question that I think impacts every business out there. It's how does the panel see the balance between densification or efficiency and hygiene? Will we be moving? We went from officers to cubes and we moved them back to offices out as the panel, see that sort of dynamic playing out?
Kate Wittels:
Well for a firm that's never had a private office. I don't see us going to private offices. So we will probably not be densifying as much anymore. And especially with a little bit of hoteling and a little bit of work from home and part time, work, home, and an office. I think it's very easy to densify and still maintain your office space or even a little bit less office space.
Peter DiMaggio:
I'll take the easy part of that question. I don't think you will see more private offices again, you know, a month and a half ago where we had older buildings, which had that we were able to get people back and then we realized, but why did they go back? Because the whole purpose of being in that office environment are at these point is to collaborate. And so I think that's the one easy one I can give you is my opinion. That's not the solution to have more people in private offices so that they can social distinction, you know, keep their air, their own environment clean. They may as well work from home at that point. So I don't know that you'll have none of them, but I don't think that's what you'll see. You're going to see people really trying to figure out how to keep their conference room safe, because that's why we go to the office.
Kate Wittels:
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's a great point. It's about why are we going to the office? What are we doing at the office? Not do we need just another place to work. And it's a space spaces. They're going to be designed around those functions of collaboration and cultivating brand and selling to our clients and making employees happy and willing to, to work and stay at the company.
Arathi Gowda:
I mean, it's just you know, working at SOM we just went through a office renovation, which was quite interesting. So all of our major offices in North America are having a new office right as this was hitting, we were like, we have these beautiful spaces that we enjoy. We were all excited to go back. But I think, you know, Kate hit on this a little bit in some earlier points that you know, we all took as a value, almost less desk space and more collaborative and conferencing space. And also recognizing that it is also for us to not just be locked into our desk, only working like this, but we do a lot of you know, conferencing, more soft spaces, more areas to eat and then have more informal conversation. So, you know, Peter, your point is to how do you keep those spaces clean beyond like a, to a twice a day protocol. It's easy to do that at your desk. You know, you're just, you are wiping that, but I think it might turn into almost like a gym where you carry your towel everywhere and you wipe it down.
Arathi Gowda:
It just becomes a different office etiquette in these collaborative spaces. And we've seen that as obviously a design trend. It's a, nobody wants to see, or just always be an identified area, but everyone wants to be on the soft couch or, you know, in the sling chair in the conference room, like group thinking. So that's why people are going in and the cappuccino maker, which is far superior to anything we have at home.
Joe Bates:
Well that, that that's sort of goes to another question of those, those other shared spaces that we haven't really talked about, the kitchen, the bathroom, I was reading an article about how you can with the sort of power flushes. Now you aerosol you know, not to get too into it, but there's a health issue in the restrooms now. How do you all see addressing those communal space health issues?
Arathi Gowda:
We've started talking about that vacuum flushing, which has long been the con of the noise and it's annoying, but the aerosol is much less. We were talking about that on a recent airport. So it significantly reduces the amount of water reducing the aerosol, but for a long time, everyone was like, eh, sounds terrible, which it does, you know, but if you're in an airport and you're already used to hearing that on the plane but I think you've heard conversations. I think there's also, and again, an interesting social nexus with these conversations about gender fluidity and how do we plan? Because again, we often do our plumbing, this based on code counts. And we don't think about having more counts, you know, both for you know, for people to feel safe with gender fluidity, for mothers rooms and other things. So I think it's going to change the way we engineer and plan for these spaces to try to be not just code, but above that, you know, think about people first.
Arathi Gowda:
And how do you have, you know, an extra thing or two, and so people could be faced out, like you go into the bathroom, you don't have to be right next to someone because you just had the code minimum, you could go every other. So these are some of the things we're thinking about. And it's interesting. Cause even standards like the wells certification, or they've been asking about things like this, and now this is kinda coming up a little bit more like, how do you, how do you have more counts of these essential places to clean?
Dino DeFeo:
Yeah. I mean, you touched on it. Code was always the code minimum. And you know, when you're designing a building, you're looking at what is, what do I need to do to meet code? I think we're, we're going, we're getting to a place where we're going far beyond what code requires and what is appropriate now.
Kevin McMahon:
So we have a question that's specifically, I think it's from a designer, and the question is, can the panel discuss educational facilities and the challenge of social distancing among children with large classroom settings? What is the solution to that?
Dino DeFeo:
Well, you can social distance into classroom. I don't know if you're going to social distance in the quad and the bar and every place else the kids go. But as far as what a lot of the higher ed is looking at right now is, is limiting the class sizes. So if you had typically that you use a small classroom for a class size, you're using your medium sized classroom class size, and the medium went to a large and a large became a virtual class. So you're, you're using larger rooms for the, then the number of students that you had. My daughter is actually just entering college now and they just actually today emailed their list of what they're doing. And it's a masks are going to be required everywhere in common spaces when you can social distance. And they're looking at flushing out their HPAC systems much more often. So when you're running a school building, you're you're using, instead of ending the day at four o'clock or five o'clock and shutting the systems down, you're running it for an extra hour, with extra ventilation air to flush the building out. So there's going to be a number of techniques that they're going to be doing to in order to make sure that they can keep the spaces clean. It's just, it will be a challenge because kids don't always follow the rules as much as they probably should.
Peter DiMaggio:
I think one of the challenges will be the short term issue and then the longterm issue. And I think Dino just did a great job of talking about using very reasonable methods in the short term. The other one that we're seeing is, and as I mentioned with the offices, colleges are splitting classes. So if you have two classes a week, one time you're in the, in the class at one time, you're the remote person. So I think the next two semesters we'll see a lot of that. And the real question will be, let's say we get our hands around this virus, right? Let's say we get a vaccine. Do people go back to the way we did things previously and start packing people into classrooms? Or do we say, this is the first of many of these potential pandemics that we may have and are they all airborne and are the same solutions they are?
Peter DiMaggio:
So, you know, my, one of my partners wants to talk about the fact that we're in the fog right now, and we know some of our challenges, but the really big challenge for the designers is know you're designing a building right now and do you design it as if this isn't going to be here and we're going to solve it. And in the near term, you use social distancing and hand washing and masks. What do you say these kinds of pandemics may be coming again? And let's build something into this facility. And that's a really big challenge for the designers right now.
Arathi Gowda:
Yeah. I mean, I would, I would just add to this and I think people can tell already in the audience that I'm the engineer for a better social, social fabric, like keep making these points. But you know, this even gets back to classroom size or what we advocate for. Cause we get pushed. I think as engineers all the time to be code minimums, it's a lot of invisible things and there might be things that are very visible, like features that people want to pay for. And so there is a space in this too. There's a, a broader conversation about pedagogy and classroom size. But this moment is saying, you know, actually protect children, protect that institutional learning and have less children in a classroom that even though we're in the fog, maybe we can, we can be advocates for that after we get out of the fog.
Joe Bates:
Kevin, one last question. And then I'm going to ask everyone for some closing thoughts on this.
Kevin McMahon:
Okay. This, this question ties into the code discussion and the American Disabilities Act drove a lot of projects for all of us over the years. Does the panel see the government and different government agencies creating many more code modifications with this pandemic in all different facets of a project, you know, such as simple things like increasing the distance between bathroom facilities in the inside, the bathrooms, et cetera?
Peter DiMaggio:
I'll take a quick shot at that. I hope we don't do that. Dino alluded to it started out with, and I think Kate did also, my preference would be we go more towards a performance based design. We've thought it for seismic. We have a lot of structural engineers. So we like when the code specifies what kind of performance the building would need to have. And I think if we do see code changes, I'd love them to be performance based changes. And then you would have the engineering and the architectural societies really figure out the best way to solve that rather than mandating specific things. I personally would like to see that flexibility.
Arathi Gowda:
Yeah, I would agree. And it's, you know, going back to that was a perfect way to describe it, Peter, the fog, but we saw a similar thing with 9/11 and fire codes. And I think again, because we, we are seeing that the science is changing on what works best or not. And I also think what works best for this particular disease might not be the same as what works for flu or, or other things that we're still going to be concerned about. A performance based method would be really important versus being very reactionary to this specific instance of health concern.
Joe Bates:
So I'm going to ask the final question for each of you and Kate. I'm going to let you start us out on this one, give you a second to get your thoughts for repaired here. But so we thought we talked about a lot of things today. The, we talked about the buildings we work in, we live in public transit, educational settings. What are, what are buildings going to look like 10 years from now that we haven't included today? What are the, you know, I want you to put your crystal ball out there and tell us what's going to be standard in 10 years. That, that isn't today.
Dino DeFeo:
I think you're going to see buildings that to be much more flexible. You're gonna, I'm sorry. It was not directed towards me, but you know, I think it's going to have to be much more flexible. We've spent a lot of time. I think I started by saying, looking at energy efficiency and not so much the wellness of the people using the building. We're going to have to focus on the wellness part of the building and make sure that the occupants are, are safe and are taken care of. And it become a respite for them and not so much a place that is ready to go to, but a place they want to go to.
Kate Wittels:
I think well, I mean, it's hard to have a crystal ball. I think we're gonna, you know, adapt to new technologies and how we do it that are going to become commonplace. I mean, I think we we've changed so quickly from home, from working in the office, to working at home that I think we can change our behavior to do anything. So if we put our minds together and try to make our society better for women, whether it's climate or equity, I think we can force ourselves to have better behaviors in that sense. And so maybe it's more not about what, how the buildings will look differently, but maybe we'll have different people in the buildings and we'll be using them in a different way for betterment of our society. I hope
Joe Bates:
Peter, what do you think?
Peter DiMaggio:
I always have two words. Do you know, stole the first, which was flexibility? The second one I'll throw in is, is comfort. People are going to expect more from their buildings because they're comfortable in their home and they know they could be there. So the two things about coming to the office are first. What is your reason for being there? And I have a reason now I expect to have a view or, you know, I can open my window and get fresh air. So I think that was already coming. But I think the pressure on the design community is going to be huge to be comfortable in the office.
Joe Bates:
Arathi, I'm going to give you the last word here today. What's going to be different 10 years,
Arathi Gowda:
No pressure with all of these superstars. But I do think that to Kate's point, you know, the future, there's going to be a multiplicity. We don't know, but I mean, when do you know that we have an aging population? So health is going to continue to be top of mind. And Joe, you said it, well, that it's going to be, this is not something that we're going to forget tomorrow is going to be a generation of us being very mindful. But we also have the climate eight ball. So I think that there is in 10 years, I hope that both of these things have more of a symbiotic relationship as compared to what they've been in the past, where we've been exclusively efficiency and exclusively health. And that's been, I think, really damaging to the engineering of our buildings that it's like, it was never both when, when it was always one or so I'm, I'm pretty hopeful that we're looking at these solutions that are really quite clever and bring the costs down.
Arathi Gowda:
They become more ubiquitous. And they look at that nexus of efficiency in health. And I think there's a lot of things that are really quite exciting now, too. It's like all dirty. And everyone's talking about this filtration humidity, like very aggressively, and we've been circling the drain on that for a long time. And I think we're getting very serious right now. You know, Peter, even to your point about comfort, it's like, well, you know, we, we had because of code because of liability, but now we're getting serious in our forums about, okay, come on. Like what's, what's going to be the best thing. And I think that's the part where it's, it's really fun and geeky, and it's fun to hang out with engineers on those topics. So I'm very hopeful that people will come. What are the good conclusions?
Joe Bates:
Yeah. All right. Well, thank you to all our panelists day after he's going to have a final goodbye here for us, but earthy Peter, Kate Dino, and Kevin. Thanks for fielding those questions for us as well. Daphne back to you.
Daphne Bryant:
Thanks, Joe. And thank you for joining us today. Thank you to our panelists and our donors for making this session possible. Lots of great information and giving us something to think about. We have a short evaluation that we will send you this afternoon. So please share your experience with us and be sure to join us on July 16th for our next session funding and the new normal, have a great afternoon and stay well.
Friday Jun 19, 2020
Friday Jun 19, 2020
On June 18, 2020, the ACEC Research Institute held the first of a series of panel discussions on the future of engineering. The topic covered by the panelists was the "Impact of Technology on Engineering." Panelists included:
• Jose Luis Blanco, Partner, McKinsey & Company• Mike Haley, Vice President of Research, Autodesk, Inc.• Chris Luebkeman, Director for Strategic Foresight, Office of the President, ETH Zurich• Heather Wishart-Smith, SVP Technology and Innovation, Jacobs• Moderator: Joseph Bates, ACEC Research Institute
A full video of the roundtable can be viewed here.
Transcript:
Daphne Bryant :
Behalf of the ACEC Research Institute's, board of directors. Welcome to our first round table and the series, the future of engineering, a big thank you to our donors who have made this session possible. We have a great group of thought leaders, as you can see here today that will share their insights and expertise with us on the impact of technology on engineering without further ado. It's my pleasure to introduce two of my colleagues from the ACEC research Institute, Joe Bates, who will serve as our moderator today and Kevin McMahon, who will be monitoring the chat box and fielding your questions during the session, Joe, it's all yours.
Joseph Bates:
Thanks very much Daphne, and thank you everybody for joining today's round table. Before we get started with our questions, I'd like to introduce each of our panelists for the webinar. Today. First we have Jose Luis Blanco. He's a partner at McKinsey & Company Jose leads, McKinsey's engineering, construction, building materials and construction technology work in North America. And as a leader of its retail real estate practice, he brings deep expertise in optimizing performance and unlocking value through embedding digital capabilities and deploying and scaling up new technologies. We also have Mike Haley, vice president of research at Autodesk. Mike leads a team of researchers, engineers, and specialists to explore the future of how people design and make things. A primary focus of his team, is automation and leveraging technologies and disciplines that include machine learning, robotics, human, computer interaction, geometry, and visible visualization. Next, we have Chris Luebkeman. He's the director of strategic foresight at office of the president with ETH Zurich.
Joseph Bates:
Chris has a multidisciplinary education, including geology, civil engineering, structural engineering, entrepreneurship, and a doctorate in architecture. And he is deeply passionate about curating, constructive dialogue, insatiably curious. He relishes the opportunity to discover the opportunities which will be created by change, and perhaps most importantly, to evolve position solutions to the profound positive solutions to the profound challenges we face today. And last but not least, we have Heather Wishart-Smith. She's SVP of technology and innovation at Jacobs. Heather is a registered professional engineer and certified project management professional with proven, experience managing large design programs and developing, managing, and turning around troubled offices and the architectural engineering professional services market. And also Heather is a fellow of S A M E and she is currently the president elect for the 2020, 2021 Centennial year. Thank you all of our panelists for joining us today. I'd first like to start out with a question fairly broad one for each of you to start out with, and I'm going to ask Mike to start us with this based on your individual perspectives, as you look at the engineering industry, what are the one or two biggest impacts that technology will have on the industry in the future, say in the next five to seven years, for instance, will, will things be going faster? We'll be doing things in a different place,uwhat what's going to happen, Mike?
Mike Haley:
Thanks, Joe. Yeah, it's a, it's a, it is a broad question. There's two things, main things that come to mind for me. So the first one relates to systems and, you know, I think as we all know engineering anything in the world today and especially buildings is all about resolving the various forces that are acting between the systems and systems might be the relationship between the architecture of the building, the structure of the building NDP systems. It could be the relationship between the materials and the methods of production of the building and the sustainability of the environment. It could be the relationship between the people that are ultimately going to be in the building. And today in most practices, we don't have a way of resolving all of those tensions all the time because systems are inherently very complex and they're always changing. So the industries rely on rules of thumb, established practices, standards, these kinds of things.
Mike Haley:
And I can see that changing in the future. We're beginning to have the ability to automate the understanding of systems and be able to bring those insights and that guidance to engineers and designers in that process. So that's my one aspect that then leads to the second one, Joe, which is that with all of this automation and your question about, you know, you know, do, do we, are we going to need more engineers or are we going to need less engineers? What's the nature of the job market? I actually believe we're going to need more. And the reason I believe you're going to need more is I actually think we're opening up the world to greater possibilities right now with these tools. And that is going to lead to the next, my second point, which relates to knowledge and education. And I think as we build automation systems that understand and learn the patterns, we don't just use that knowledge to automate and make the machine do things, but we can use that knowledge to upskill people. We can train people more easily in using tools and using techniques. We can raise the sea level for lots of people at the same time with technology. So I see that as a sort of a commencement great trend that we're going to see in the coming years.
Joseph Bates:
Great. let's, let's go over to Chris. Chris, what do you think?
Chris Luebkeman:
So I, I totally agree with everything Mike just said, and I want to amplify a couple of points. I think there's three things. We're going to see expansion, acceleration and consolidation. As Mike said, an expansion of what we can do and expansion of toolsets and expansion of knowhow and expansion of what we're going to be asked to do. I think there's the acceleration, there's going to be, we're, we're suffering from this already when we like to complain about not enough time to even think anymore, we just have to do do do, and frankly, that's not going to stop. And so therefore these tools are going to help us. I hope and these techniques and our, and our teaming will help us deal with that acceleration. And the last is consolidation. I think we've seen over the past 10, 20 years, an industry wide consolidation, especially in the built environment.
Chris Luebkeman:
And I believe frankly, that will continue, but I also believe we come back to the first one, it's going to lead to an expansion because as we have the consolidation and either, so this core, core, core core, all of a sudden, there's going to be the realization. We need these new typepology, these specialists who can really focus on, for example, getting our, our third world infrastructure back up to what it needs to be in order to to regain our, our, you know, a position of pride and the other parts of this sort of this other is a consolidation of knowledge. I really think that we're going to be able to acquire and that it's not consolidation by what's there, but how we get it. Right. So we're going to be able to in a much easier way, consolidate know how consolidate knowledge in a much more rapid way. So those are my three words. Great. Jose, what about you?
Jose Luis Blanco:
Like how Chris frame it in three specific like you know, sentences or, or, or, or things? Let me try to do the same. I think that for me, the three things that I believe what I would love to see going forward, given what we see in technology is more transparency first. Second, being more output outcome driven. And the third one is actually much more collaborative environment. Let me try to just give you 15 seconds for me to one the transparency of think it's clear, but I think it's, I think right now we're capturing data. Not only we capturing data, we're storing data in a much more way that is going to be, we're going to be able to actually analyze that data and provide like, you know, transparencies and some traditional issues we always have a, in the construction industry and Jane construction English, okay.
Jose Luis Blanco:
Who made that change? What happened? What was the implication? So I think that that's going to be a huge unlock for us, and we wouldn't have a lot of noise that is always around our industry and to move forward. The second one is outcome driven. It's also tied to the first one. I think if we have more data, we have more transparency and then we're going to be able to actually you know, our designs are going to be much more outcome driven is going to be able to provide better service to our owners. I mean, I'm sure Mike and his team are working on Gera design, like crazy these days. And that for me is critical because it's going to be able to fully actually capture what the client needs and actually tell them, like, here are the choices for you, depending on the outcomes you're trying to achieve.
Jose Luis Blanco:
And the third one, which is the collaborative point, I think is much more than just breaking silos because we're going to have much more transparency. It's like for me, going back to Chris' point about knowledge, is really unleashing like the potential talent of fully the potential of like a group of engineers working together, right. Removing all the constraints that we need to do right now being tying like the King of silos and many other things. So these three things : transparency, outcome driven and collaborations is the things I expect and hope to see in the future there.
Joseph Bates:
Heather why don't you round us out here with your thoughts on this subject.
Heather Wishart-Smith:
Sure, so I think that my thoughts on this are really quite frankly, complimentary to what the gentlemen have mentioned. The first really that I would focus on is the interconnectivity of systems. So I've mentioned since, but that interconnectivity and disciplines, and then also the technical workforce. With regard to the interconnectivity of systems, you look at the interconnectivity of society we're coming out of the pandemic, the future of cities the urbanization, everything is going to need to rely on techno technology to really meet that exponential growth and the exponential growth of mega cities. So as was mentioned earlier, this will provide more opportunities for engineers to get involved, to leverage that kind of technology. And, you know, Jose mentioned silos. With that, I mean, I really think that those who are most successful in the technology enabled world will be those who are able to break down those silos and cut across disciplines.
Heather Wishart-Smith:
So much of what we do in innovation is rather than just say creating something in one discipline and then kind of throwing it over the transom for the next discipline and the next discipline; cutting across, and co-creating across disciplines in order to increase that speed to market. But then the workforce is that second aspect. You know, of course there's so many statistics out there about the U.S. In particular, not graduating enough STEM graduates, and of course it's about more than just graduating them. We need to retain them once they come into the workforce in order to remain competitive. But we also need to recognize the value of the trades, particularly as the trades become increasingly complex, as we bring IOT into operations and maintenance and all of that. So I think sometimes it's tempting to view technology as kind of a way out of not graduating enough STEM graduates, but it's, it's, it's really going to cause the need for even more of those graduates.
Heather Wishart-Smith:
They need to, you know, they need to have the skillset to design a program that operates and maintain all the technologies that we think will help, you know, get us out of, out of the, the brain drain if you will. But that, that workforce, it needs to be nimble, adaptable needs to be committed to lifelong learning. And finally, I think it's critically important that that workforce be inclusive and diverse. It's not just the right thing to do. It's been proven by study after study that inclusive and diverse companies and organizations perform better. It allows us as an industry to just really cast the widest net to draw the widest possible pool of candidates, to get as many STEM professionals as we can. And it's really once you that critical mass of diversity, that's when you can get the most benefit from diversity of thought.
Joseph Bates:
So, Heather, I think you've provided a great segue into the next section of questions here that I wanted to ask about. And that's about the increasing speed of design and how that impacts projects and delivery. And in particular, are there generational issues that we need to consider here are our younger people that are graduating more adept with the technology that is out there, or, you know, what, what are your thoughts on this?
Heather Wishart-Smith:
So because the people who are graduating today are digital natives. I think it's, you know, very often tempting to fall into that unconscious bias that people who are have more time in their career might not be as willing or able to change. But I have found and worked with so many people who were at the latter end of their career, who really do fully embrace that technology and innovation. So I mentioned earlier being nimble, being adaptable, having that commitment to lifelong learning, it's really about that mindset. And I think it's also important to be open, to taking on say a reverse mentor. Yes, we absolutely need to be learning from, from younger people. We need to provide better pathways to promotion and success. We, we shouldn't in any way be writing off due to our unconscious bias, any kind of you know, whole groups of people, right.
Heather Wishart-Smith:
I, I'd also add that, you know, not all technologies innovation, not all innovation involves technology. Some of the best innovations we have are those that have nothing to do with technology. It's really innovation in my mind is about how you approach problem solving, constantly asking what is the problem that we're trying to solve. So automation, of course, you know, we all know it should be harnessed to reduce repetitive tasks. And oftentimes also more higher risk operations to get people out of harm's way we should be using it for rapid auctioneering. We all know about, you know, generating just infinite possibilities, filtering them down to make sure that we're presenting to our clients what's best for them. Gone are the days where we show up at the [inaudible] with just, you know, possibilities. So we have a lot more to offer it's design attitude approach rather than the decision attitude approach, because you know, of course, decision attitude is assuming that all the, you know, the good options are out there. It's just a matter of deciding which one is best, but as we move into more automation, I really think it's important to take the design attitude approach to come up with the best alternatives. And then after that, the decision will be much easier.
Mike Haley:
Yeah. I'll answer that a little bit. What had I say that, you know, what, what we've found with the, with the newer generations, the digital natives, as you put it, Heather, is that there's a different expectation about the time to productivity you know, the traditional tools, certainly that we've been building were things that required a long time to become proficient. You had to study them, you had to learn them, you to learn the features you had to, there was a period of learning that was required. And there's, there's a level of expectation now about digital natives that they can pick up a tool and be productive immediately. So there's this relationship between learning and being productive, I think, is going to change. It is we're not ever going to have a world where you learn first and after I think, period, the time you become productive, the two are going to be much more intertwined.
Kevin McMahon:
I've got a question from the audience, one of the audience members wants to know in the future because of the varied nature and multidisciplinary skills that are going to be needed, that all the panels have mentioned, will, graduates be coming out of school with a more varied skillset - majors in civil, but perhaps minors in mechanical and electrical, for instance.
Heather Wishart-Smith:
Yeah. So I'll address that. I would even great question and I would even take it one step further, not just minors in mechanical and electrical, but in programming, in robotics, in all kinds of different disciplines that might not have been considered as related say to civil engineering as in the past. But the challenge for us in the industry is to make use of them. I think the risk is really there where you get the bright eyed, bushy tail, new graduates, and they come in and you're really attracted to them because they have the programming skills, they have the robotics background, they've done all kinds of three D printing. And then we sit them behind a computer and tell them to design things the same way that we've been doing it for decades. And we run the risk of burning them out of just really disenfranchising them. So we can't just be attracted to them. We need to recognize that we need to continue to foster that and cycle them through different opportunities and then listen to them when they come up with a way to challenge the status quo.
Jose Luis Blanco:
I think what Heather just said is super important. And I think that there's, if I may add one, another point is I think there's a very thin balance between and technology needs to help us with that between actually ensuring the that we maintain the knowhow that has been billed by the, I will call the older generation so to speak. I mean, we know that 30 or 40% of the workforce is going to retire over the next 10 to 15 years. So I think technology needs to allows us to capture that kind of knowhow making institutional and at the same time, without the same time, you know, and now we're allowing or empowering the new generation to do new things and doing them right. Right. So for me, that's a little bit of like [inaudible] out the new generation to do things differently, not the same way I've been down before that, for me, it's like what you actually make magic happen.
Chris Luebkeman:
So excuse me, I'd like to build on that as well. Yes. And first to the graduates, and then to what Jose was just saying, I think the question Kevin was a little bit in my mind too limited. Saying gonna major in civil and mechanical, I would much rather say, well, how about civil and philosophy or civil and biomedical or bio or, or, or some earth sciences or something that's actually, I think what we're hoping to see is actually a mix of the hard - the decision sciences with the natural sciences, because the challenges which we require, I think as a society are not just those who are trained how to make a decision, but as Heather was saying, the profound impact of a systems understanding and the need for us to understand more and more about how the elements within their systems sometimes need to be sub-optimized so that the system is optimized. And I think this is one thing. And the second point to build on what Jose was saying is I, totally agree with that. And we have to figure out how to make real lifelong learning, not just continuing education credits, which you go to some lunchtime lecture, which we all do and get a stamp and say, Oh boy, that was good. Thank you very much. But actually to real meaningful, lifelong learning and how I, and I, frankly, I don't know exactly what that means at this point, but I do know we're all recognizing that due to the, due to the rate of change, both professional, informational knowledge, that we need to find better ways to foster, to empower and encourage real lifelong learning and lifelong curiosity to learn. And I think that those are the two aspects there, which are not hand in hand, but in North self evident, but very, very critical for us.
Kevin McMahon:
Joe, we have one very interesting question then I'll let you ask the next question to the panelists. The question is with the super evolvement of technology to the panel is see that where most of the work is still procured locally and performed locally. Do they see a future where the local office, where the client is maybe just a small nub or collaboration, and then the bulk overwhelming bulk of the work is done around the globe or, or outside that core local office. Do they see that future happening in the next five to seven years?
Mike Haley:
I will. I'll say we're, we're beginning to see that happening already. I don't think it's a, I think it's, it's a growing trend. You know, technology is enabled and enabler of it. So as the economy, so it's society, right? All at the same time, we're seeing the shift of cloud adoption. People storing the data in centralized locations that can access it from everywhere. The days of having it on the server, inside your company, and only being able to use it. They're pretty long gone for a lot of companies. I think the gig economy, the notion of being able to hold down multiple contract jobs at the same time, switch between things, manage your workload, manage your life is a reality for a larger, larger number of people year over year. And then I, I just think that the borders are breaking down in terms of how we think about the world. And I think just because you live in another side of the world, you can think about problems elsewhere in the world, quite easily. You have access to that information.
Heather Wishart-Smith:
And I'll add to that. We've actually been doing this for years. It started out, I looked back in my career when I was, you know, managing programs. It started to become of course necessary when you needed to bring in a specialist who you wouldn't expect to have in the local office, but it really has evolved to the point where it's just a normal part of how we do things these days. And I think it will just continue to evolve. And that's a little bit different. I come from a very large firm,uand the smaller firms probably it's not as necessary, but it it's absolutely being done. And in addition to the technology and adoption of cloud, as Mike said, also,uvirtual and augmented reality has helped to facilitate that as well. And it also means,uless travel for some of our staff. So that's better from a work life balance perspective.
Chris Luebkeman:
To me, I agree with both, both of those, again, strange, but to me it's all about access. Now, at the end of the day, you used to not have access to first-class knowledge unless you were in a center. Now we right now are in two different continents at seven different time zones, and yet we're all accessing each other at this moment and the other, almost 300 people. And so it's it's access. And so it's access to knowledge, but it's also access to the marketplace. So I've been for the past five, 10 years, really, really encouraging the integration of small local offices, because at the end of the day, we know with the global move towards segregation. So national segregation and regional segregation, this is, this is going to continue. And so the local offices are going to become key to be networked and to create a new kind of network, which is trans-regional as, as the, you know, globalization screeches to a halt. I think this is, this is going to be a new reality, which we have to really look at. How can we make sure that the small local office can really provide the most excellent world-class delivery. And I, and I think that at the same time, we will still be, the big firms will still work globally and the Jacobs, the ARUPS, and all these they'll be able to flip work around the, around the world and continue doing that.
Joseph Bates:
Great. So I want to move on to the next section and I'm going to have Jose - I'd like to direct you then to start out with you on this one. There's a lot of buzzwords today in technology such as digital twins, data analytics, machine learning, and artificial intelligence. I'd like to talk about, first of all, what are the terms actually mean? And secondly, how will they actually affect the industry in the future? So maybe Jose, if you want to start out with one of these areas and kick us off.
Jose Luis Blanco:
Yeah. So a couple of reactions here. I think there's definitely a lot of buzzwords going on. And I think that I would like to separate the reason for that is because I think people sometimes actually confuse you know, technologies that aren't available or venture capitalists sounding, right, or that money is flowing to actually develop reinvestigate versus technologies that are really being adopted, whereas having mass adoption. So we'll make that distinction in the beginning of it. Right. So it's just been, you know, two or three or four, what you say is like, really, if I think about technologists, for instance, that are already impacting the way we work, obviously there's analytics that actually are being applied or advanced analytics are being applied on the field for early flags for projects. How do you explain, or the main factors that explain what a project can turn profitable non-profitable so you can, you can do a reduction analysis to actually do that, and even just forecast that you can definitely do it, you know, analysis of bidding and bidding factors, or even you can apply it to other electronic design for instance, right.
Jose Luis Blanco:
Which is starting to be widely used. Right. So there's things that are already happened, right. When you think about some of the things that may happen in the future, or maybe starting to happen, but not fully implemented, that's when you start entering like a world of lack of potential digital twinning, construction, or potential, like, you know, artificial intelligence where we actually fully explain, I don't think we're doing artificial intelligence in construction, per se right now, I think we're starting to do machine learning. And actually my, my actually disagree with that. I'm not, but actually that is a little bit like how we see. So I think the big, important thing for me is like all these technologies we're exploring and what should we be talking about all of that. Right. And, you know, venture capital is funding as soon as you get amount of them. And we're seeing a lot of them, the ones that actually read being adopted, I wouldn't say that at scale, they started to be adopted as a sizable pattern actually are much limited. I mean, they made it to analytics and we made it too, obviously maybe generated the design, some machine learning applications from project planning in advance.
Jose Luis Blanco:
[Inaudible] ....some Of that is implemented. I just want to hold on. When you say digital twin, the sec for various specific kind of use cases or a specific like areas who still are like ha a little bit like far away from a fully functioning digital twin, we understand in aeronautics to where we understand, you know, their industrial processes. Anyway, that's my perspective.
Mike Haley:
Yeah. I, I think Jose I makes a great point about, you know, I think of it as the hype cycle, right? And the reality is all technology goes through a hype cycle and terms like artificial intelligence, machine learning are, are hype terms. Now we deeply believe in artificial intelligence and machine learning and digital twins, but they have to be ready to Joe's point. One of the things I would add is I, you know, I think the things that are real today, like you said, are our analytics computational methods. You mentioned that Heather as well, the ability to explore alternatives, I think that's becoming a fairly robust capability today. When we start coming back to that systems aspect of things that we were talking about earlier, that's where it starts becoming complicated. And I think this is a big role where machine learning can actually play.
Mike Haley:
If we are to build - digital twins, I've also been around for actually quite a long time. And as you said in other industries too, but the difference is the future to have to understand the system. If they don't understand the systems, they're not correctly reflecting the situation and you're not going to be able to optimize your solutions correctly. The only way I believe you're going to be able to make correctly representative digital twins in the future is through sampling. The world is through measuring the data, learning from that data, generalizing those patterns, and then placing them within that digital twin. And then you, then you leverage that digital twin to optimize your designs and look for alternatives. But that's a pot. That's a path we're on. We're not there yet today.
Chris Luebkeman:
I think one of the interesting things with all of those is, as you said, Joe there's, there are buzzwords and there are many different interpretations. We can look at them with starry eyes and say, you know, I can't wait to do a digital twin and others get terrified of the thinking of the matrix coming down upon us. But as you've asked, I think it's, as we're talking. It's really critical that every firm, it makes the effort to learn about them. Both the potential as is implied by the technology tool makers, but also from those like Jose or Heather, or my other colleagues about what we're seeing is little small implementations that are showing success. So some of the data analytics for mobility and how that's able to really begin through the digital twinning of mobile networks and, and train systems of our airline systems actually to say, ah, okay, well maybe that works there.
Chris Luebkeman:
Maybe I could work on our proposals for this project, if we could try something. You know, I think so for me, the key with the buzzword is that our firms are prototyping a little bit and they're having a person or two who they give a freedom. What say one degree of one degree of freedom to try this. So that when the, when the client, the project, the tools are all right, that we're ready and it doesn't take yet another three years of ramping up to figure out what the heck it is. And I think that's, that's my 2 cents on that.
Heather Wishart-Smith:
Yeah. Joe, I can give a couple of very specific applications if you're interested. Yeah, yeah, sure. So starting with digital twins on water treatment and industrial water plants. So we've got a tool called replica that allows us to optimize those systems to prevent overflows in the event of emergency response, do a lot of scenario and what if training? And it also allows us to optimize the design and optimist and operations and maintenance. Another example for data analytics is for NASA at their Langley site in Virginia, we have about 120,000 sensors that are all around that campus. That measure things like vibration temperature, humidity, and we use predictive analytics and machine learning to be able to anticipate when something might break, which then leads to benefits like improved safety. You don't have to send somebody out to just regularly change a fan belt or whatnot improve reliability.
Heather Wishart-Smith:
That is a huge aspect of it. A site like NASA, they really do need to keep their site going and not have these unexpected outages also financial benefits, money money that saved and energy efficiency. And that we've had - we didn't start with 120. We started with, you know, you know, I think it was a few thousand or something like that, but it's been going on for about four years. And it just goes to show that there are a lot of opportunities in the built environment to be able to harness these technologies. I think we probably, you know, as far as specific discussion about artificial intelligence, but when, you know, when you marry that with automated design, we've been able to automate the design of you know, replicate some some very re repetitive sorts of components, say of rail or other things that, that are used quite frequently. But then bringing that and taking the learning again, starting small. So I mentioned starting smaller with Langley, starting smaller with some other things, learn from that and then be able to use it to scale even larger.
Kevin McMahon:
Joe, we have a pretty interesting question following up with what the panel just talked about from the audience. And it's with the ongoing industry evolution of technology is all for the panels of describe and the new graduate backgrounds that are not necessarily all engineering, traditionally related vertical integration of team, perhaps some of those team members being around the world. What impact does the panel see relative to professional engineering licensor requirements? Also coupled with the political issue today of making sure that America stays strong in engineering and doesn't outsource all the talent, like the manufacturing issue that we're well aware of.
Joseph Bates:
Good question. Anybody want to bite that one?
Chris Luebkeman:
So I I'm perhaps not the right person to answer this one. And I put that up front because I'm no longer licensed. So I really probably don't have the right to answer that question. I think what is critical is there, look at what the responsibilities are and who carries the responsibility because to me, a professional engineer in Switzerland, you don't need to have us go through a special, another licensing exam because the education is supposed to prepare you for that. But at the end of the day, it's who carries the responsibility. And what do you want to trust? Do you want to just, you want to trust a degree or do you want to trust actually that someone has proven their capability to make the right decisions. So I think it's that trust and I hope I've given Heather enough time.
Heather Wishart-Smith:
True friend, Chris, thank you. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's a, that is a great point. I am still licensed. But I think it's, yes, it is trust. I think it's important to recognize despite the fact that there are many forces out there in various States trying to diminish the value of the license and great organizations like ACEC, like NSPE had been working hard to show that value. So despite those forces of trying to diminish the value of it at the end of the day, I think we need to remember that technology is a tool. So the tools have evolved. It used to be that professional engineers just worked at the drafting table. Then we shifted to computer aided design, you know, and then we've, we've evolved. We've got, you know, all kinds of different tools, but the technology is just a tool we still need to, as Chris said, trust the people who are applying the tool and that's for the professional engineering, licensure comes in.
Chris Luebkeman:
Good job Heather, thank you.
Joseph Bates:
So in the interest of time, I'm going to go ahead and move on to the next question that we have here. Okay. We could, we could probably have a round table on each one of these questions. This next one. I'd like to direct it at Heather and, and Chris as well, actually. How is, and you all have talked a little bit about this already, so maybe dive a bit more into this, but how will the technology affect the culture and the collaboration environment of engineering firms? You know, we talked a little bit about will, and there was a question about, will it work different places around the world, but in terms of the culture, how is that going to be impacted by technology?
Heather Wishart-Smith:
Yes. Would you like to start, or should I start and give you some time to think...
Chris Luebkeman:
You're on the edge of your seat and ready? So go for it.
Heather Wishart-Smith:
Okay. so we've already talked about that. I think there's going to be - several of us have said that we think that there will be a greater focus on cross disciplinary work. Innovation, pretty much demands it. And we, we can't just complete our work in silos. We need to have these multi-disciplined teams and these multi-disciplined teams, can't just be the disciplines they need to include the business model. So the HR piece, the finance and all the rest, that should be part of the development of new solutions. I think a key way of doing this is, you know, at least in my role is by embracing innovation within the workforce that we have and that's by promoting collaboration.
Heather Wishart-Smith:
So we need to teach people across the business to be able to collaborate, to be able to network so that when that real work does happen, they have that muscle memory of the collaboration of the innovation. And I mean, you know, in our industry, it's so difficult because we're built on a billable hours culture, it's been this way, you know, for eternity. And there's also a performance unit kind of mentality to the engineering industry where you know, it's, whether it doesn't matter how your company is structured, whether you're structured in it by geography or by discipline or by market, there's still silos. And so we need to find ways to promote and, and sustain the breaking down of the silos. Many firms are, are, are structured to promote and sustain them, but we need to find ways to break them down. They're hard to break down. But I really do think that the firms that endure and those that will be successful are the ones that are successful in doing that on breaking down those silos.
Chris Luebkeman:
So I agree with fully Heather and I want to bring up two more aspects. One is cooperation, we are going to be in an increasingly cooperative and competitive environment. And I think many firms already, and many of us already understand how you can compete and still be friends. And this is one of the things I always enjoyed. When I was got to travel, go down to Australia and watch a sort of Australian rugby game or rugby, you know, and people would literally like without pads, try to beat the blank out of each other, but nobody really did anything where they couldn't go have a beer afterwards and they would respect each other from, you know, the grit and their cleverness and how they played the game. But you never played dirty. Cause if you played dirty, you know, you couldn't have that had that beer.
Chris Luebkeman:
And this is something which I would like to hope that we can also aspires - not necessarily Australian rules, rugby. It's a crazy game, all due respect, Mike, it's crazy. But this idea that just because we're competitors does not mean we can't always be good friends and I truly believe we need to work more on the second part. I think we're very good at the first part. So I think so culture is actually a manifestation of both the written and unwritten rules and how one treats each other. And it's the written and the unwritten rules. And part of your question there, Joe is about culture change. So part of the question that has to be, as we look at ourselves and our firms, what is our culture? And do we actually understand what the written and unwritten rules are of our firm? And if you haven't asked yourself that, and not just what you think as a principal, what the culture is and you say, well, our culture is openness and you walk into the office.
Chris Luebkeman:
And as soon as you walk in, everybody puts their head down and they're afraid of you, but you can say it's open, but the reality might be a very different thing. So to actually have a real conversation about the culture that we need in order to be successful in the new economy, in the digital transformation and one and one more thing, Jose, and it's all you said. So for me, the most important thing that we could say with this is, and I support Heather is it's not just a technology, but it's actually having a real conversation about our firm's culture and what we wanted to be slash needed to be.
Jose Luis Blanco:
Yes, just 10 seconds of this. I think that there's clear, there's a very clear link between performance and health, right? Health critical part of that is culture. And I think that over the past three months with COVID, I think we shift towards a working remote environment and we all will be surprised how fast we've been able to adapt to that. Right. but I think that some of the challenges of the issues will culture are going to start to appear in the coming months. And it's my belief that you can sustain. You can potentially sustain our existing, strong cultural, remotely. I don't think you can build the cultural remotely, or you can rebuild a culture remotely. So that's something that firms will need to, you know, when we're talking about what we're hearing about are they working from home, you know, half of my staff working from home and things like that. I think the implications of cultural implications of that I get to be seen, and we just need to pay attention to that.
Kevin McMahon:
With lifelong learning, that a lot of the parents have mentioned, and the ability for more experienced engineers to learn new tools and skills, maybe it's more from Mike's first answer, or are the tools keeping pace with the expectation of learning curve of designers to shorten or eliminate the learning curve to use these tools?
Mike Haley:
No, I wouldn't say they are. I think there's a it's, it's, it's a very, it's a, it's a difficult problem because I don't think it's well understood today. I mean, we, we still live in a world with traditional educational cycles, traditional university college, whatever it may be, get your, get your certification, do that. But those are the cycles we live in. So those are the models we have today. There isn't many models that, that, that, that have this sort of rapid learning world that I referred to for. I mean, some of the only models today are actually newer technology applications. Things you might get on an iPad that people are learning supervised there's there's ideas. There's these hints. I think all over the place as to what these are, I would hesitate to think of a single really, really good example that exists in the world of technology today.
Mike Haley:
I can tell you, in our research group, this is a very large part of our research objective. And it's precisely for this reason is that we don't actually know the right ways to do this. We are doing experiments in our software. We were introducing features that help people understand how they're learning the software, how they compare to others who are learning it, what are their patterns of progression through the software? And as we do this, we are gradually introducing more tools, but we're also learning at the same time. So I'm not quite sure what that looks like yet, but we don't have an option. That's the point though, we have to do this. We have to make this, the nature - tools cannot just be about taking what you do today and automating it away. Tools have to be about making you more effective and making the combination of human and machine better at the end of the day.
Chris Luebkeman:
No, I think that's great. The other thing I think so fascinating, it was Kevin with that question is the micro-learning. And I have two 20 something year olds one's graduated. One's just about to, and you know, they, they do micro-learning if they need to learn how to do something, they take and look on YouTube and they find a little burst on how to do it. And then all of a sudden they know how to do it. And I just, it's hard for me of a different generation to think that way. I'd rather call up Mike and have Mike explain it to me and say, hey, you know, and talk to him. And my son, George would just rather just look at YouTube, look it up. And he actually doesn't care what language it's in, because if it's a tool, he can just watch the strokes. And sometimes he'll look at something in different languages, because it's just interesting to see how someone's designed something slightly differently. It just kind of blows my mind, you know?
Joseph Bates:
So I, again, I just want to keep us moving here. I apologize for cutting off these great conversations. I want to this one's just for Mike, and then we're going to, we're gonna move to the last questions here, but Mike, how, how are people going to pay for this? You know, are certain firms going to have an advantage, the big firms, because they can afford to pay for the technology and the education and the taking the non billable hours to learn it, what's going to happen there and how will the small firms catch up?
Mike Haley:
Right. So, I mean, you know we're seeing a lot of new business models around how people pay for software, right? So, I mean, we've, we've moved to subscription models which make billing more consistent. And over time, we're also seeing the emergence of capacity based models. And, you know, there was a time not too long in the past where there were, there were products and tools that we make at Autodesk that very few firms, unless you are a massive firm could actually afford, you know, you would, you would only use those tools if you're a certain size that doesn't actually make sense in a capacity based world. So if you're paying for capacity, if I'm a small, if I'm a small firm and I need to run say three structural simulations a week, if I pay per structural simulation and don't have to pay an enormous amount of money for the software upfront, then it doesn't matter that I'm a small firm versus a big firms.
Mike Haley:
So I think we were seeing these more flexible models that, of course they relate to the cloud, they relate to those sorts of things. And I think, I think there's an interesting difference between large firms and small firms. I think large firms have an inertia that, that, that they have to overcome, but they also have, they have the capital, they have the assets, they have the money, they have the ability to do some of these things only. So the firms lack what Heather were saying. Firms that have been doing this for awhile, actually have a massive advantage because they are there. They are able to act on it. On the flip side, the small firms are nimble, right? They are flexible. They starting up. In fact, their secret sauce will be adopting these very kinds of technologies that we're talking about right now, data in the cloud work from anywhere, flexible learning, bring the data together. Use, use generative design, use, use digital twins, use insights, use these things. And those will be the folks that will win better. But I do believe in the sort of flexible business models that allow everybody to leverage all of the technology.
Joseph Bates:
Okay, great. So I'm going to ask the final question for each of you, and then we may have time for a couple of questions. Kevin Jose, I want to start out with you. I know you have to log off just a couple of minutes before the rest of us. So the big final question is what is, what is the firm of 2040 look like? You know, put you put on your thinking, cap, your wizardry, whatever you want to call it, your crystal ball. What is the firm of 2040 look like Jose? He might be gone. Oh. Did we already lose them? Okay, well sorry about that. I thought we were going to have him for another five minutes, but so let's just go ahead and throw that one over to Heather.
Heather Wishart-Smith:
Sure. So I think that we're going to see very few of the traditional A & E's in place. I think that line between technology and design it's, it's already been blurred. I think it will become increasingly blurred. Some examples. We all know about Sidewalk Labs and their smart city project in Toronto. And, you know, yes, I know it's, you know, that project has been terminated, but it they're going to come back in a different city with a different model, with more privacy controls and all the we've seen it with Elon Musk, the Boring Company, and Hyperloop pretty much with no past performance, they've won large scale tunneling projects. You see it with tech companies with autonomous vehicles. Just what was it two weeks ago with space spaceX just launched America's first private company to do so here in America. So that line is really becoming increasingly blurred.
Heather Wishart-Smith:
So it's really going to result in the increase in the skill set of firms. So tech companies, I think, are going to start acquiring more traditional skill sets, maybe by buying some of these more traditional A & E companies, especially as the owners age out and traditional companies are going to be acquiring the tech skills. That's maybe not as much through acquisition, but through training, by hiring different people. It's funny at Chris, I love your term of coopertition in, I have a colleague at Jacobs who refers to it as competitive-ates. These are where sometimes you compete and sometimes you collaborate together. Taking what Chris said earlier a little bit further. I always try to remember that today's competitor could be tomorrow's client because this is such a small industry. We all have competitors who have since become a clients but, you know, with these competitive-ates, cooper-ates competition, it's really about collaborating together to address these new market opportunities because alone, we're probably not going to be able to get there. So it comes back to your behavior, your home, we talked about earlier, your mindset, not being risk averse, being open to new ideas. And if you want to endure, do not get too comfortable in your silo.
Joseph Bates:
Great. It looks like we have Jose back Jose. I wanted to ask you before you have to jump off, what does the firm of 2040 look like?
Jose Luis Blanco:
Well just kinda like very, very interesting question. I mean, I wish I had a crystal ball to actually explain all that, but I think that, I think in my mind, if I just summarize what I see the firm of 2044 as like having a very different demographics in terms of like the roles that we have and have been there for 34 years I'm very doubtful that we're going to be there. Right? [inaudible] The projects that we have right now, many different type type of led professions in there and professions that don't even exist as of today. Right. I expect us probably hopefully it'd be again, probably much more remote, but also with some sort of physical presence because in the end physical presence, local presence, because in the end, I think that the work that we do is not only even the built environment is an enabler for many of the things and we need to listen locally to be able to deliver globally.
Jose Luis Blanco:
Right. So that's something that also, I think the firm needs to have. And I hopefully I hopefully like you by 2040 as is like in a few years time, which is time you know, infrastructure and the brother engineering space is being seen as a critical part of how people, you know, how will you enable how people live, work and play. So hopefully we will see engineering to be playing even a more integral part in people's lives than it even paying today. So maybe I'm being too optimistic, but those are the things that I would personally see. I see all these revolutions that are happening is also like almost like an opportunity to put the engineers back at the center of so many different things that we can do to improve our society going forward. So again, maybe I'm a little bit of like an optimistic, maybe I'm just like a little bit optimistic, but those are some of the things that I would expect to see in digging the farmer to 40, like diversity from backgrounds, diversity in terms of likely for him elements being much more at the core of how we work, play and live. And and those are some of the traits that I expect.
Joseph Bates:
Great. Thanks Jose. Mike, what about you? And then we're going to add, go to Chris.
Mike Haley:
So I, since we're a group of optimists here, so I'm, I'm I'm an optimist as well. When for me, a lot of it comes back to the competition thing that Heather and Chris have both talked about, but looking at it at a knowledge level I think there's an enormous amount of knowledge that exists across the engineering architect of the entire building industry that is mostly common, but it's not always shared or is really shared. And I think by 2040, I see there being a strata of, of knowledge be a digitally represented, hopefully that is then is available to everyone. It, again, I used the term, you know, raising the sea, raising all boats, right? All boats are naturally floating at a higher level, which allows the competition then to actually happen at a higher level. The difference between firms is no longer at this lower level that everybody is benefiting from the shared observations, perhaps it's the performance of certain buildings or performance of certain decisions or materials or processes or whatever it is. So I really do see a more collaborative world centered around knowledge sharing.
Chris Luebkeman:
So for me, well, the first thing that I do whenever I asked a question like that, Joe, is I think of, I go 20 years back. So if we go back to two year, 2000 and think, where are we as a practice, as a world, they're all freaking out because we thought our computers were going to blow up, right? And the world was a, I would argue a very, very different place 20 years ago. So I'll then go forward and think 20 years, what's the context going to be of the firm 20 years from now. And so we will have massive water stress globally. We're already seeing that in the United States, North America. So we will see mass migration. We're going to have a political stress due to migration, which we have not in our lifetimes yet even begun to experience.
Chris Luebkeman:
And so therefore we're going to be called upon to solve problems, which are not just technical, but have a social dimension in a way which is quite profound. And I'm not quite sure if we're going to be up for the, up for that yet right now, the firms aren't. But I think by then we will be, I think there by 2040, we are always going to be designing and full artificial reality. And we'll be using virtual reality in construction sites as an absolute norm. It's gonna be like, duh, can you believe that we actually did this once without it just in the same way. Now we can hardly imagine using a slide rule, which I think I was the last class at Cornell to actually use, you know, and I think, and so this is going to be a new, so let's means then if you're doing in VR/AR or that means you don't have to be co located in any way, shape or form.
Chris Luebkeman:
So all of us can be in a design meeting right now and actually really interacting with haptics so we can push and pull and really feel that I think by 2040, we will have climate legislation, which has been a long time coming, which will then have a different paradigm shift on how we, and what we designed to. So the makeup of our firms will also be very different and what's going to be needed in order to, for us to design for things which will be fit for purpose because the purpose will be not just engineering specification. And I think that's so, and then if I think about economically, we will have gone through two recessions. We're about to hit one and we will at least go through another two within 20 years. And I think we'll go through to identity crises as a profession. We're kind of in one right now, we're doing, what's our role.
Chris Luebkeman:
I think we'll go through a couple more as these new tools and these new challenges come. And so, and the last one, I'll say, no, politically there will be a new ballgame. There'll be a new empire, not quite sure which one will rise stronger, but you know, our rocket is kind of kicking over. We've seen peak Americas. And so, and then the question becomes, what will it look like in this new environment for consultants that we already have a lack of sand. We have a lack of, you know, so it's gonna be very interesting in how we design in a constrained physically constrained world. So these are gonna be new challenges, which I think is super exciting for us. And we have to be walk into this with our head up, right? Not looking backwards, but to walk with that with our head up and shoulders back saying, okay, it's, it's a new, it's a new game. It's a new quarter. Let's get the team out there and let's play ball.
Joseph Bates:
Great. Great, Chris, thanks for closing this out there. Daphne, I'm going to throw it back to you for a few final comments.
Daphne Bryant :
Thank you everyone for joining us. Thank you to our panelists for all your wonderful insights to our donors for making this session possible. We do have a short evaluation that we will send you this afternoon. So please share your experience with us and be sure to join us next week for our second session, the buildings we live and work in, that'll be on June 25th at 3:00 PM. Eastern. Thank you. Have a great afternoon and please stay safe.
Thursday May 21, 2020
Government Affairs Update for May 21, 2020
Thursday May 21, 2020
Thursday May 21, 2020
Steve Hall, Matt Reiffer and Katharine Mottley from ACEC's Advocacy team joined Engineering Influence for our very first video podcast to give a government relations update on their Rescue, Recover, Rebuild grassroots advocacy campaign and the current status of the PPP program.
Transcript:
Host:
Welcome to another edition of Engineering Influence, a podcast by American Council of Engineering Companies. Today we are bringing a new kind of twist to our podcast. We're in the world of Zoom and COVID-19. We're going to try to do something visual this time and have a government affairs update with our own Steve Hall who has been practically on Zoom since the day started to um bring us up to date on what's going on with the Paycheck Protection Program. I want to give you guys a little bit of an idea of where things stand here as far as the association goes and with our industry on the PPP program. In our latest member survey on May 8th, we found that 88% of respondents reported applying for the program. And 94% of those said that they'd been approved for the PPP program and another 4% are awaiting approval.
Host:
So it was very popular with the industry and 94% let's see here. And just under two thirds, 64% of those firms plan to use all of the loan funding while 22% plan to use some of it and return to rest only 2% right now or are considering returning all of the funds. So it's a program is being accessed by our industry, many other industries. It is a monumental effort by the SBA. This is not an agency that's actually designed to do something like this to take this amount of volume of applications and this kind of money and try to get it out to the economy. It's been going well but there've been issues with guidance. Treasury and SBA have been slow to get some certainty out there with certain aspects of their FAQ. And things have changed over the past couple of days. And Steve, if you want to kind of bring us up to date on, on where the program stands and, and what Treasury and SBA have done and what really, you know, it was going on with the program right now.
Steve Hall:
Yeah, thanks Jeff. Now we're seeing some encouraging developments really over the past week and a lot of anxiety up until now, and it's lingering a bit, but over two issues really. The issue of, of certifying good faith in terms of economic uncertainty, in other words, is, is the firm worthy to, to receive this loan. And I think what we saw released last week was encouraging basically loan holders at $2 million and below are essentially defacto certified by virtue of the size of the loan. And then the guidance goes on to say that for borrowers above that $2 million SBA is going to work with them through a process to help them to to figure out if they can meet that certification threshold, but a much more encouraging tone, a much more deferential tone than perhaps we had seen in, in previous weeks.
Steve Hall:
Where there was a great deal of concern generated about you know, what SBA and the federal government take a very punitive approach to borrowers really outside of what we thought was within the intent of Congress. I think Congress really wanted to be very deferential to to borrowers and try to structure the program as such. So that was a good step on that question of certification and and I expect that we hope we'll be seeing some additional information come out on that. The next issue was loan forgiveness. You know, the core of the program and we did see some information come out earlier this week. You know, the, the application for forgiveness and the kind of data and criteria that SBA is looking for, which gives us a sense of what it was, what it's going to take to get some, most, all of your loan forgiven and some guidance with that.
Steve Hall:
I think we are expecting to see additional guidance, more comprehensive guidance forthcoming. But again, this has been helpful to our firms, to our CPAs, to, to get at least an initial sense of what the agency is looking for to satisfy that question. So, you know, good news over the last week, not a complete catalog of information that we need and where you're hoping to see that relatively soon. And as if history is any judge, you know, it may be that con or SBA and treasury continue to put out guidance in small traunches and then refine that guidance responding to questions from organizations like ACEC. And then at some point we may actually have to go back to Congress if there are structural problems or challenges that are really beyond SBAs per view to to fix where we have to amend the law. We'll do that. But we'll work hand in glove with our members before we do that and work with our CPAs. We've got a lot of very smart people working with us to you know, go through this information and to come up with recommendations that we need to deliver both to the agency and to Congress.
Host:
Because it is a popular program. And I think that the universal call or answer from, from the private sector is that they want it to be a success. So that there's a lot of, you know, it's not a adversarial relationship with, with, but the SBA and Treasury, it's more just informing them of what we need, what we need to actually make this program work as it's intended. So it's good to see that that guidance come out. And again, you know, as we get this information, of course we're putting it out anywhere we can. So we have our Coronavirus Resource page of course, which is on acec.org. It's right on the homepage when you see that. And, and we're making sure to put all this information into our normal communications to members. There's going to be a weekly message coming out from our CEO, Linda Darr. It's going to be focusing on a lot of what Steve just mentioned here and everything's been linked and it's all available for you.
Steve Hall:
And Jeff, just to add to that you know, the education side of ACEC is teed up and ready. We've got a panel of CPAs that will take part in a free webinar. Once that additional guidance comes out, we expect that we'll be well attended and we will redo it as often as we need to and as often as new guidance comes out but you know, but the organization really geared itself around getting that information in the hands of our members as soon as possible so they can make good business decisions. And and we're certainly going to continue with that.
Steve Hall:
And I know that you've been, like I said earlier, you know, you've been busy all day on Zoom meeting after Zoom meeting. We are right in the midst of a larger advocacy push under the Rescue, Rebuild and Recover kind of theme and it's been a virtual grassroots effort. Letters, emails, meetings, Zoom meetings with members of Congress. How many meetings do you think you've been on right now with, with members of the House and Senate with ACEC members across the country?
Steve Hall:
Gosh, I think we're North of total North of 70 meetings so far. And and these are happening. I've been on a few today and I know my colleagues Matt Reiffer, Katharine Mottley have been participating in these as well. And really the message has been coming back has been very encouraging, you know, lawmakers on both sides of the aisle. They get it. I mean, they want, they very much want to support a recovery agenda built around infrastructure and you know, there's lingering questions as there always is about how to pay for it. But a great deal of interest in doing this. I think you know, as you've heard me say before, I think Congress is still in emergency response mode and still thinking near term needs. I think what, what may be emerging as the next package of assistance may actually be built around assisting state and local government agencies, DOD, transit agencies things of that nature.
Steve Hall:
Obviously that's something we're very supportive of, you know, anything that will prevent, you know, current projects from being interrupted or shutting down. We want to be supportive of and there does seem to be an inkling of bipartisan support emerging from this approach. So that may be the catalyst for the next package. You know, as, as Katharine indicated, there's sort of hopeful expectation. We might see something in June on that package and and then hopefully, you know, Congress then switches gears and thanks a bit longer term, you know, in a multiyear recovery agenda, you know, built around what Congress has to do this year. They've got to do a surface transportation bill to replace the fast fact by September 30, and they've got to do a big water package. And the Senate stepping out, they, they have reported all of those bills out of committee unanimously. Which is great to see. And and that gives you know, the congressional leaders in the Senate the option to package all of them together into one big package or to move them separately if they wish, but actually to get something done this year, but they got us, they got to move quickly because the clock is ticking.
Host:
Yeah, it's not in their favor. And you mentioned, you mentioned Matt and Katharine and I think they have joined us, so I'm going to switch over to a view and bring them in. And thank you both for joining in. So we have really the the, the feet on the, the, the boots on the ground here for the PPP and surface transportation effort. So Matt and Katherine, thanks for joining the interview here. Steve was going over, a lot of the PPP work has been done. A lot of the guidance coming out and of course the webinars and the meetings with members of Congress, part of our advocacy program. I mean, I know you've been on some of the meetings as well. How do you think they've gone, this is new, it's virtual instead of going actually into somebody's office and talking to somebody, you have a screen like this where you know, you have maybe 10 people or less and a member of Congress. How, how has it compared to what, you know, the traditional shoe leather lobbying that you guys do?
Katharine Mottely:
You know, Jeff, I think that's a really interesting question. I mean it is a different kind of connection. On the one hand you don't get that face to face. You, you can't really read the body language and get and get sort of that better sense of the story behind what they're telling you. On the other hand, I think it has sort of opened up these meetings to a larger swath of our members. The meetings that I've been on have had, you know, 25 members from the state with their senators and for some of them some of those folks may not have been able travel to DC on a normal basis anyway. So, you know, I think that sort of greater access for both, for our members and for the legislators can be a good thing.
Matt Reiffer:
I would agree with that. In the, in the few that I've been on what's nice is you get the Congressmen or the Senator's undivided attention for a block of time. When you're meeting in DC, almost inevitably you get interrupted by votes or committee meetings or markups or important briefings or something. But particularly for the house members who have largely been back in their districts you know, they're not, they're not getting pulled away into those sorts of things. So you get, you know, 20 to 30 minutes of their undivided attention, which is really tremendous. And there, you know, they are so eager to hear about what's going on with their constituents, where their local businesses. So it was valuable for them to hear not just here's our advocacy priorities, but you know, here's what we're working on. Here's what we're experiencing, here's what we're concerned about, you know here are plans for, you know, reopening our offices or keeping our employees safe. Here's the, you know, here's what we're doing, worksite protocols and safety, you know, just a range of things that they care about. And then, yeah, how are the aid packages that we've already approved working for you? Are they helpful? What do we need to change? Cause they want to know. So this has been really valuable input for them.
Steve Hall:
You know, Jeff, Matt made a really good point there with respect to, you know, how certainly our members reviewed on these calls. You know, because there are great conversations with lawmakers and the lawmakers and seeing each one of those faces on the screen and they're often zoom calls like this. Each one of those faces represents a firm that employs many people. So that, that, that ACC member talking is not really talking just for himself or herself. But for all of the folks that work in the firm and and that reality is not lost on lawmakers and the staff that participates on these calls these, these, these contacts resonate and really do have meaning.
Host:
And it's just not, the meetings are fantastic. So I think it provides a, it's a new way of reaching out and talking to your member of Congress in person, virtually in person. Like I said, Katharine, if you have 25 people on a call, it's hard, you're hard pressed to find, you know, 25 people don't get them into an office. Even, even a, even a ranking where a senior Member, you know, their offices aren't big enough to fit 25 people in normally. So being able to get people on a screen, you know, you get more, more bang for your buck there. But then we're also doing the traditional, you know, letter writing. We're doing, you know, emails to Members of Congress and of course, social media activity. Matt, I mean we, we've, we've topped a significant number of compared to, I think the last major push was on tax reform and I think we've kind of eclipsed the number of, of emails and messages sent. What's the last you have the last tally available? I know, I don't, don't want to spring it on you, but I know that
Matt Reiffer:
I don't, but I can click over and check and get them.
Host:
Yeah, no, that would be great 'cause I know that the number is significant.
Matt Reiffer:
Get you real time information. Hang on just a sec.
Host:
Yeah. that would be awesome because again, you know, on the, on the acc.org website you know, you'll see it right there. When you land on the page, you'll see advocacy and that takes you to the R3 - Rescue, Recover, Rebuild advocacy site where you can click to tweet. It has issue sheets. It has social media resources for, for grassroots activism. And it's really a one stop shop for everything that you need to take part in this.
Steve Hall:
You know, Jeff during tax reform. And Katharine knows this. I mean, we generated something on the order of 6,000 contacts with lawmakers and which was far and away bigger than we've ever done. And I think when, when Matt last checked this, we were rapidly closing in on that amount. So this campaign is going to go into the summer and I have no doubt that we're going to Go well beyond what we did previously.
Katharine Mottely:
And you know, Steve, just to add to that, I've heard comments from a couple of our members who remember that advocacy effort during tax reform and part of what they've communicated back is that we didn't realize that we could have such an effect. We didn't realize that our engagement through ACC and contacting our members of Congress could result in such a good outcome. And so a lot of them would have remembered that and taken it forward to this time. And they see that what they do and say and the emails they send can make a difference.
Matt Reiffer:
I just checked - we've got 2,060 member firm advocates who have taken action and delivered just about 6,400 messages to the Hill.
Steve Hall:
That may be a new record right there.
Matt Reiffer:
Tremendous outcome.
Host:
And again, yeah, this is, this is, this is in its early stages. It's going to evolve as the situation evolves. You know, we're calling for of course a focus on an infrastructure based recovery agenda. Of course that's going to be focused again and Steve, like you mentioned, FAST Act reauthorization and WRDA - two pieces of legislation that are must do's must pass bills and they're already teed up. Each chamber is working on its own respect of tracks and as you noted in the Senate, they've been marked out unanimously. There's no real bipartisan schism when it comes to WRDA and surface - they are a lot closer than people think. So the, the continued push by our grassroots to get this through is going to be significant.
Steve Hall:
It's going to be critical. Jeff, not to interrupt cause we've, we're, we're hoping to see how spills emerge in the month of June. And so you know, it'd be great if we could double those numbers in the month of June and and give some additional push behind house lawmakers to, to at least get this out of committee in the month of June and get them ready for floor consideration.
Host:
Absolutely. Well we covered PPP, we covered kind of the advocacy campaign and the, and the work you guys are doing on, on, on the individual member meetings, but then also the webinars and everything else that's going on. I mean it's, it seems like every day there's, there's, there's another webinar or three webinars that we're running to, to make sure we're covered. Anything else to think of as we enter kind of an odd Memorial day weekend?
Steve Hall:
Ah, you know, just, just the, the issues we've talked about and then side issues, you know, we're working to make sure that issues relative to from overhead are addressed and protected. You know, there is a, you know, regulatory action on the part of the department of defense that would require firms that receive forgiven loans to provide their federal clients with a credit to offset those loans. We don't think that really was the intent of Congress. We've pushed back and we actually have developed a letter that a number of organizations are signing on to, to help us push back. So that's an ongoing priority and something that Matt has been working with the rest of the team on. And as well as similar efforts in issues and potential concerns on the transportation side with respect to state DOTs and the Federal Highway Administration. You know, in addition to the big issues in Congress, there's a lot of granular issues that we're working on with respect to those issues and you know, tax issues and the tax deductability questions that are outstanding relative to firms that receive PPP loans and something that Katharine has been working on.
Matt Reiffer:
Yeah, I was going to say Katharine and I were a little late coming onto this call because we were just coming off a small firm roundtable with about 40, 45 participants, a really great forum for information sharing and helpful for us to listen to and hear what firms are experiencing. And yeah, there are a lot of interest in both of those issues. A lot of those firms took PPP loans, are interested in forgiveness, interested in the tax component of that as well as the potential impact on their overhead rates in terms of loan forgiveness and how that may be treated for federal state contractors. So yeah, very timely and yeah, very interesting.
Host:
Yeah, it's nonstop with government affairs right now. So I know it's we're coming on to about half an hour. I know you guys have a busy packed schedule, so I really appreciate you all taking the time to to appear on a kind of an oddly I guess just figure we live on Zoom now. Might as well tried to do a video interview instead of just the the, the good old audio podcast that we do. So thank you for being on. And again, this is Engineering Influence brought to you by the American Council of Engineering Companies. Katharine, Matt, Steve have a great Memorial Day weekend. Stay safe, stay healthy and and stay engaged with us 'cause we are off to the races. Just go to acec.org click on advocacy. It's right there on the homepage. It'll take you right there to the R3 advocacy page, all the resources that you need to take advantage of the grassroots campaign we're running. It's all there for you and just take advantage of it. So thank you all for being on.
Friday May 01, 2020
Friday May 01, 2020
Richard Branch, the Chief Economist for Dodge Data & Analytics stopped by the program to talk about the current state of the U.S. economy during the COVID-19 pandemic and what lies ahead for the A/E/C sector.
Monday Apr 06, 2020
Business Continuity and Adaption in the Time of COVID-19
Monday Apr 06, 2020
Monday Apr 06, 2020
Sean Goldwasser, Vice President and Chief Operations Officer for Black & Veatch's Water Business in North America, joined the podcast to discuss how the firm is adapting to the challenges of conducting business in the age of COVID-19.
Transcript:
Host:Welcome to another edition of Engineering Influence, a podcast by the American Council of Engineering Companies. And we're coming to you today with another part of our ongoing series that really focuses in on the big new story of the, of the day that we're all living through, which is the coronavirus pandemic and specifically how the industry, the engineering industry, is dealing with this really unforeseen and unprecedented challenge. And today I'm very pleased to be joined by Shawn Goldwasser. He is the Vice President and Chief Operations Officer for Black and Veatch's water business in North America. And Sean really brings some good perspectives from the industry as far as how Black and Veatch has adapted the main concerns that they have related to the coronavirus pandemic, both internally from a business standpoint and external also from a client side. And Sean, I really appreciate you coming on the show to provide your perspectives here. I guess first off, let's just talk about, you know, how are things where, where are you working now and, and, and kinda how is the, how's the environment that you've adapted to.
Sean:Jeff, thank you for the opportunity. Yeah. So, so like a lot of people today I'm working from my house. I've got a family of four, a college student and a high school student, and we're all sharing bandwidth and they're doing their home studies. And as I'm doing work from home and, and it's, it's a good problem to have, I'll put it this way. So Kansas City both on the Kansas and Missouri side, it's been relatively mild here. We don't have the same size of populations that you're talking about. And some of those coastal areas we still do have international travel covers, but again, not to the same level you'd expect to see in California or New York, that type of thing. So the actual number of cases that have happened here have been quite a lot fewer if for no other reason than just because the population is smaller as well. I would say that people in the community at large seems to be dealing with it with relative calm but with the same concern and uncertainty you see everywhere.
Host:Absolutely. And how's your firm dealing with the the change to remote work and and how are you dealing with the work still with the clients on sites?
Sean:Yeah, so that's actually been as much as you can say some things like this is success, right? I think for our discussions today I'm going to be positive because think having a positive attitude is important. But I also want to make sure we say there's a lot of people that are going to become, if they haven't already become seriously ill and some people are easily going to lose their lives over this. So I don't want any of my positive attitude to trivialize the very nature of what this is. But I think having a positive attitude and looking at the bright side and what opportunities are as important for this. We've been looking at our response to this essentially unprecedented event in sort of a three part approach because you've got to break it apart into something that you can get your arms around. You know, first and foremost we're looking at, well what do we need to do to best ensure the safety of our professionals?
Sean:That includes effectively people and their families, right? Cause if professionals get ill, families get ill. That whole thing unwinds the same thing extends very quickly to our clients. So we moved to a work from home model very quickly. You know, once you've got that basic safety issue, reasonably taken care of, not perfected, but regionally taken care of, then we're talking about, well how do we adapt now that people are in their homes, can we continue to function and how's that gonna work? So what technology are we employing as a business to allow the nature of the work that we do that is usually in normal traditional office spaces and in client spaces. How does that work in a, in a world where face to face contact isn't prudent. And then once we've gotten that stabilized into a functional level, then we start talking more nearness about what does that mean to the longer term business here in the mirror, the mid and long term of opportunities and, and to make sure that the clients continue to get their needs met. That's the important part as well.
Host:Absolutely. And especially in your sector, which is so critical because it is essentially critical infrastructure and an essential role dealing with water, water pipe, you know, water networks ensuring that people have continual, uninterrupted access to clean water. That we're dealing with water management properly. I mean these are things which are, they need to be stepped up. Not this is when you put the pedal on the gas instead of slowing down.
Sean:Equally true when it comes to power, telecommunications and oil and gas, other aspects of the businesses that we serve in terms of critical given infrastructure just as true.
Host:Absolutely. I mean this is, this is really where the value of what you do comes into play because people relying on those public services to stay active and open. I mean I, for one when I went into the grocery store and I noticed all the water, you know, flying off the shelves and my mind was like, well, you know, this is the water systems are staying on. But then the thought crossed my mind, what would happen - God help us - What would happen if there was some lapse or breakdown in our critical infrastructure, like our power, like our water systems and what would that mean for communities and for regions and being able to pivot to a work from home model, a remote, you know, socially distant model while still enabling the clients that you have in the water space and in, in the public infrastructure space to get their job done. That an in such a short time. I think that's the most amazing thing that you're able to pivot so quickly is, is really impressive. And, and, and must be, you might be you know, writing, writing the manual as you, as you live it.
Sean:Yeah. I'm, I'm afraid to get too cocky with that because the universe has a way of humbling people that get that way. You know, it, it hasn't been perfect, but it's been pretty good. I will tell you we have, we didn't, we didn't make up how to respond to this overnight. Right. There were things that we had in place. Not, I wouldn't say that we anticipated this kind of an event cause we didn't. But from a business practice standpoint, we engage in something called business continuity planning where we're really more looking at what happens if the professionals can't in the Kansas City office couldn't come to work because there was a fire in the building that day. But what if there was an earthquake in Los Angeles and the professionals couldn't get into that office. And that day our business continuity plans talk about how are we going to respond if that happens.
Sean:We weren't really thinking about it from the standpoint of everybody in every office globally needs to work remotely. But as it's happened, as it happens, the things that, that we had put in place to mitigate these risks have served us very well in terms of remote working tools and network connectivity. We use a lot of video conferencing. We used it before on people's individual machines. Well that actually serves, there's no substitute for face to face contact, but it served us very well. So when I look at things like things, again, things that we didn't anticipate to be used in this, but our, our strategic plan talks about working in new ways, being rapidly evolving and highly innovative. We were really thinking about that from the standpoint of business disruption and how businesses changing evolve over time. When I look to what this has resulted in the need for us to do, those things are just as equally important as we respond to this crisis as opposed to just changes in business.
Host:Yeah, absolutely. And I, I think the the important lesson there is regardless of the size of the firm doing that business continuity planning doing that crisis management exercise and having a plan in place and being able to have something to rely on in cases like this is so critically important. And out of curiosity, how, I mean, how, if you, if, if you can go into detail on this, I'm not sure, but you know, how, how frequently does Black and Veatch reassess over time It's continuity plan in, your experience, you know, is it the kind of thing which was done on an annual basis, biannual or sooner so you can keep, you know, keep that fresh.
Sean:Yeah, there are aspects of it that I probably shouldn't share with you or couldn't share with you, but this is a fair question to ask. And it so happens that I am responsible for this business continuity process within the water business anyway. And we look at it yearly, every year and we look at what did we say last year and what would our response be given the tools, systems, practices and demands we have in front of us. And if the event happened this year, what would be different? Our offices changed. Our needs changed. Digital risks can change. So it doesn't, once you have something in place, it doesn't take a lot to update it and it's proven to be pretty important to us.
Host:Yeah. I guess the main lesson is to get something in place and then just don't put it on a shelf but, but keep it out and refresh it once in a while so that you can quickly pivot and move to a, you know, put it in action. So that, that's really important for I think at all executives understand the importance of that. So I mean, from an internal perspective, it seems that you had a plan in place, you're able to act on it from the external side, the client facing side. How has this impacted or, or created opportunities potentially to apply your expertise into areas related to really the situation right now with the, with the pandemic, not just healthcare of course, because this is widespread. There are many other areas where, where you know, agencies and, and, and utilities and public sector clients need help.
Sean:Yeah. I would say there's probably a, what comes to mind anyway as a sort of a two part answer to your question, there's the ability to work with your clients, which are our long-term business partners. These are entities and people that we've worked with for a long time on these critical human infrastructure issues. Their needs are changing as well. What's coming at them is coming at them very quickly, both in terms of real technical and delivery challenges and the public perception issues. We're working with a lot of water entities that are having to go out while having to not having to choosing to go out and be very public saying, don't worry, your water system is not at risk. This is not a waterborne illness. It doesn't represent a risk of disruption of service. There is no real risk of that, but the public procedure to be when it becomes a problem for those clients, so working with them to help understand what that means to how the communicate it is useful. We've been sharing some of our tools and practices with them because we are pretty good at working remotely because we travel. A lot of our business people travel across different sectors. Our clients don't always have that same structure. So their ability to work remotely and be dispersed is different than ours is. We've talked a little bit with some of the clients about how to adapt in near term and being remote because not all of them have the IT systems in place to do this kind of thing.
Host:Oh no, I was just going to save that. That, you know, that kind of goes to the idea that we always say if, of course a normal times of you know, engineer's and their client, that relationship, it's that trusted advisor relationship. It's not always just you know, the direct day to day of either designing or maintaining or acting in support of a utility and making sure that things work on time. It's also providing that leadership, that experience and best practices to help their clients understand and approach problems with solutions. So that's, I think that's a good example of that.
Sean:And those who had been a lot of our initial conversations, not all by any means, but a lot of our initial conversations with clients talking about, well, what, what has this crisis to you as an, as an, as a client, as a different business? What does that done? What new challenges is it causing you to have to face, you know, in some cases we're going to have solutions to that. In some cases we're going to help you work for your solutions to that. Some of those are relatively simple. Some of them are not.Host:In certain circumstances like this. And I think you put it very well that it's managing perception and it's helping the clients understand the best way to communicate something that you're fighting. The idea that PR perception becomes reality and people might react incorrectly in crisis situations. Largely have you seen an impact from you helping your clients communicate the fact that you know, things are gonna happen. You know, things are still going up. You turn the tap water is still going to happen. You don't have to worry. That doesn't involve water. You know, has that seen success in your mind?
Sean:I think so. I think most of our clients were reasonably well along the way to solving those issues. I don't know that that was the most pressing issue facing them. I think for most of our clients, the more pressing issues are how do they maintain business continuity. The issue of public perception is real. It very much is real, but it probably was not as much of a threat to their business as the disruption of not being able to work in the same way as they were used to working with working under I think is probably a bigger threat. Absolutely. And then some instances, you know, if you're, if those clients is, supply chains are disrupted, that kind of thing. That's, that's a much more, that's a much more serious challenge. You know, and it's causing some, some new things altogether. Some new things that's not very specific, but we, we talk about one of the things as an example.
Sean:I mean there's, some of this is run of the mill and some of his brother mundane, but some of it's actually a little bit sort of potentially pretty exciting. You know, one of the things you keep hearing about is the testing, right? We talk about testing, well we, the news talks about testing for this virus and the number of test kits that are available and the duration of time it takes to get results. One of the things that public entities across world, not just the U S are looking at is how do we know when we've peaked? Right? That's a key question here. How do you know when you've peaked? And if you, if the metric for that is the number of tests you can run, but the test kits are limited and the analytical capacity is limited. Is there a different way of doing it?
Sean:But one of the things we were already working on is a business and still in an experimental stage where essentially data analytic side of sensors and I'm not a technology expert in this kind of thing, but we were looking at sensors that could be put in wastewater streams to test for certain pathogens. And with the idea being, could you test for the presence and concentration of pathogens in a wastewater stream? And when we apply that kind of concept today, what if we were able to take that same technology, apply those sensors to wastewater streams and be able to track the presence and quantity or relative presence of this pathogen, COVID-19, the virus in a wastewater stream that would eliminate the need for the public health agencies to have to go test every single person to then go know what, what is the path? Are we peaked on a curve or not, because at least use that wastewater stream data to say has a given location peaked? It wouldn't tell you anything about individuals, but it might help you make good public health decisions at a city or state level. That's still in development. You know, we're not looking - I don't think it's realistic we'll say, we'll roll that out tomorrow. It's not that kind of thing, but it's a real technology. So as we were already working on that we've converted to see, can we apply it to this?
Host:That's a, that's a great example of the use of and the importance of data. And it's not just the collection of the data, but it's, it's just the interpretation and how can you apply different technologies that are being developed to different challenges. And that would be, you know, I could, I could immediately see how useful that would be for a governor or for, you know, FEMA or the CDC to get a better regional or, or scatter a map of, of potential concentrations of a pathogen. Not just COVID-19, but anything. If you're able to use those sensors and leverage that data in a way where you can assist policy makers making decisions it's a perfect example of applying a technology to a different problem, and adapting it to meet it.
Sean:Yeah. Other examples like that where we're sort of looking at things that we were already trying to put in place. Things were already exploring, you know, something else we were trying to do. I was telling you earlier about the, the company focused on being rapidly evolving and looking at that from a different way of being a disruptor in the business. We've got something we call our incubator and we use that as a way to try to draw out new ideas, whether they're directly connected to our core businesses or whether there potentially somehow tangential to that. And using that to find partners that are, again, not necessarily part of our normal supply chain to see could they come up with something clever and interesting that disrupts a given business that comes up with a new idea. We've got some press releases out now actually that are reflective of this. Trying to find, are there other partners that have ideas about how, some idea that they have that could improve our, our society's ability to deal with this virus.
Host:Yeah. I see that front and center on your website with the ignite X code 19 response accelerator as, as,
Sean:And our growth accelerator. We can put money into that and find ways to collaborate.
Host:Absolutely. And that's, that's, that's the power of just, you know, getting, I, it's great to see because a firm like yours can can play that pivotal role of connecting someone with a good idea and turning that into action. And it's a good example of the private sector innovation kind of, you know, playing a large role into responding to situations like this because you can move quicker. And you can present solutions faster than, you know, let's say the government would be able to and you'll be able to provide the government the solution that they might've been looking for and not even knowing that they actually needed. So that, that is great.
Sean:One of the other things we're looking to do here is to see how we can in a more traditional sense probably, but how we can be a part of helping mitigate one of the potential real risks that we're facing from a healthcare industry and standpoint. And that is you see the news for New York city and none of this is critical of New York city that are facing a huge wave of numbers coming at them. But you see the news stories that have a hospitals and emergency rooms jammed with people and people lined up in hallways. They're just absolutely being overwhelmed with the number of cases coming in. Both have terms of COVID potential COVID-19 patients plus our normal load of people that are just sick for other reasons. Somebody breaks their arm, that kind of thing. You know what, what we find, I think we're seeing is that the healthcare systems understandably, are not set up.
Sean:The physical infrastructure is not set up to deal with the numbers of people you have to triage to make that work. And also you have a secondary risk when you put that many people in proximity, even ones that are coming in for a different reason may end up becoming infected due to the proximity of the people. So is there a way to look at creating these modular temporary hospital setups? We were looking at that right now. Modular, rapid modular health system where we could go essentially augment existing health systems, hospitals and put a, you want to think of it like a treatment diagram, a flow diagram, put a module for additional physical infrastructure to allow for triage ahead of the hospital emergency room to alleviate some of that difficulty. That's something that we're working with some of our private partners and potentially in government agencies with to see if there's an opportunity there to go provide that assistance because we have the infrastructure experience, building experience and process and technology experience to help in those arenas.
Host:And that's, that's something which is going to be I think, increasingly important, not just in this circumstance but in, in as, especially from the policy side in Washington, we start talking a lot more about resilience in term of in terms of essentially everything, social infrastructure, physical infrastructure, responding to potential disasters, manmade or natural and having that capability to assist you know, public health in responding quickly it could help change the way that we respond to future disasters which is of critical importance.
Sean:And I think your point about responding quickly really is one of the key pieces. Any of these entities could decide that they need additional triaged capacity ahead of a given medical facility, but normal practices would take years to get that put in place. We don't have years to get that put in place. You know, if this is going to be effective and mitigate the risks to people in a system that could easily become overwhelmed with patients, it's going to have to be done quickly.
Host:It's going to be interesting coming out of this and, and kind of looking ahead in the crystal ball about how Congress and policymakers are going to be looking at this. I mean there's talk of course about the committee that's already been drawn up, but the relevant agencies that deal with our industry, especially in the House side with Transportation and Infrastructure, they have jurisdiction also over FEMA and the Army Corps of Engineers. It's going to be interesting to see how they, how this opens their eyes to these different aspects of the need to move quickly, to move rapidly. And what kind of systems are in place or could be in place and to create the flexibility for companies like yours to be able to partner with agencies to really get these things from the testing phase or, or the drawing board into rapid implementation. And that'll be something that I'm sure we'll be looking at from ACEC National's perspective. And of course, you know, regionally from the state level and local. So that's, that's a really important thing. Is there anything else that you are kind of working on right now that could potentially be applied to this or any other kind of situation of national concern?
Sean:I think the thing comes to mind for me at the moment in response to that question probably has more to do with the longer term implications of what this pandemic is going to teach us all about how position, how to prepare, how to be able to respond to something that you didn't see coming. Because again, certainly there are people that have been warning globally about this type of a pandemic, but that's been going on for a long time. What is the opportunity for us as a business but for society at large and for our clients as well to look at, okay, what can we learn from this and what would we put in place to allow us to be flexible and responsive and resilient? That resilience discussion is probably one that I think will play very strongly. It will be very important for our clients in the future and for us as well as a business. Right? Absolutely. A lot of what we did, it hasn't been perfect, but it's, it's served us pretty well and having the ability to arrange yourself in a way that provides resilience is probably going to be increasingly important and better understood moving forward.
Host:Yeah, I mean today's emergency is tomorrow's kind of manual for best practice too. So the work that's being done now, like I said, it might not be perfect, but it's working can be the testbed for a future response, which is know critically important for everyone. From the public sector, you know, policy side down to the people who are going to be receiving the the care where there's going to be, you know, health care or, or disaster recovery or, or what have you.
Sean:And even if we take it outside the realm of public health and just think back to the providers of infrastructure, you know, the, the power generation, the telecommunication providers, water providers, all that kind of thing. The, the cost of providing resiliency measures for yourself and you can do it upfront before there's a crisis can be quite a lot less expensive than dealing with the crisis where it prevents you from operating.
Host:Right. Yeah, absolutely.
Sean:We'll see an improved understanding of that and then increased willingness to spend reasonable amounts of money to achieve better resilience.
Host:Absolutely. And, and, and knowing the past work that was done in previous, previous legislation on the Hill moving towards that the pre-disaster mitigation work you can lower the cost. It's always cheaper if you can do it on the front end than if you're forced to do it on the back end and if the engineering industry and firms like yours can get in on that conversation at the start, help shape that policy work, it can lower the burden for taxpayers and speed up the process. And it's that focus on pre disaster mitigation, which is so important.
Sean:I agree. Very much agree.
Host:Well, Sean I really do appreciate you coming on the show. I think that your perspectives both the firm-wide from Black and Veatch and then also individually from your position in the firm in the public public sector side and the water side is critically important for, for our audience and for our members to hear. I would say enjoy a nice weekend coming up. I hope you can get outside a little bit. I, it's a, it's a daunting challenge these days with, with separation - social distancing.
Sean:Yup. Well we'll, we'll find a way, right? There's way to do that. Able to get outside enough to stretch our legs and keep our bodies. Well, I appreciate the ability to talk to you today and your listeners on this podcast. I think it's an important discussion to be having at the level of our industry and I think there are meaningful things we can learn from this and take forward to make it to improve society in general at large.
Host:Absolutely. Absolutely. I think there is a, there is a, there is a very bright silver lining in the storm cloud. And I think that together industry-wide, we can learn and we can improve from this and, and come out stronger for it. And, and the work that you guys are doing at Black and Veatch is definitely helping to make that a reality. Keep us apprised of any new developments. We'd love to have you back on but thank you so much.
Sean:Very welcome, Jeff. Thank you. Thank you.
Tuesday Feb 04, 2020
ACEC Coalitions Update
Tuesday Feb 04, 2020
Tuesday Feb 04, 2020
Engineering Influence sat down with Matt Murello and Kevin Peterson to get an update on ACEC Coalitions.
Transcript:
Host: Welcome to another edition of Engineering Influence, a Podcast by the American Council of Engineering companies. Today we are very happy to bring you an coalition update and to give us an update on what's happening in coalitions we welcome coalitions Chair, Kevin Peterson. He's president and CEO of P2S Incorporated out of long beach, California and coalition Chair-elect, Matt Murello, president of Louis S. Goodfriend and Associates. He's out of Chester, New Jersey. So welcome to you both and one of who, kind of start off with a update on advocacy and the coalitions, what's happening in advocacy.
Kevin: Thank you, Jeff. This is Kevin. And currently we're developing our 2020 coalition advocacy agenda in consultation with the ACEC advocacy and external affairs department. We're happy to report that our coalitions continue to be strong contributors to the ACEC PAC. Last year we were represented 55% of the total PAC dollars from our members, up a couple percentage points from the previous year.
Host: And that's really good news. The PAC is one of our strongest tools to advocate our position so that is good news. From the membership side of the coin, where are things looking at coalitions?
Matt: Thanks Jeff. This is Matt Murello. And so every year, one of our coalitions or sometimes too, we have a recruitment drive, which is steered by the the ExCom of that coalition. And this year we started a new drive for the geo professionals coalition in November, netted 16 new members. And we also implemented a recruitment drive for both CAMEE, COPS and Land Development, which got us six more community volunteers. So we're looking forward to continuing to increase our numbers. I believe we're up by another 2% this year. And continuing to spread the word of the value of coalitions.
Host: That's fantastic. That's, that's, that's key because membership into the coalitions, it's easier than people think. And we need to get the word out there for ACEC members that it doesn't take much to join. And recruitment efforts like that, recruitment drives are critically important to start getting more people involved. And one of the benefits one of the benefits once you are a member is education which is another big area that we're looking to work on. So what's happening with education sessions with coalitions and events?
Kevin: So let me, let me update you on what we did in the 2019 fall conference in Chicago and coalition sponsored seven education sessions. We had also had five member round tables during that conference. In terms of, in between conferences. At the end of this week we have our 2020 small firm coalition winter meeting, taking place in Dallas focusing on leadership at all levels. We expect that to be a very successful event and later this month we'll have our 2020 coalition winter member meeting that's going to be held February 27th and 28th in New Orleans. And it really will be exploring the future of design software technologies. And a lot of our coalitions are also doing ExCom meetings. At that meeting. So it should be a very successful event right after Mardi Gras.
Host: Ah, that's, that's a perfect time to be down there right after the party stops. When you can actually move around and registration, I understand us is now open for that winter meetings, is that correct?
Kevin: It is. And, and they can find the registration link on, on the ACEC website.Host: Fantastic. Publications are another area that we really focus in on. It's, it kinda builds off of the education piece. Have there been any updates on publications in the coalitions?
Matt: Yeah, there has. And you know, you hit the nail on the head when you talk about one of the distinct advantages to being a member of the coalitions and with all the coalitions being in one group a membership to any one of the coalitions allows you access to all of these documents. And if anyone from ACEC were to purchase them and were not a member of the coalitions, it would cost thousands of dollars. And the, the documents are constantly being updated since July 1st we have a seven new or seven documents, four that have been updated and three new ones. The new ones are come from our CASE and new Geoprofessionals Coalition on lessons learned as well as commentary of the ASCE design procedures and health and safety plan checklist. So this is a process that's always going. We usually have between five and 10 updated or new per year and we're continuing moving in that direction. We also have in November-December Engineering, Inc., we featured our coalition leaders talking about prospects in resiliency, changes in leadership and climate change. So we're, we're out there our leaders are out there and talking about industry trends.
Host: Yeah, that's a really good point Matt, because like you said, if you went off and you tried to source these publications on your own and you tried to buy them or, or just find them somewhere it would get expensive really quickly. And being a member of the coalitions gives you that amazing library of content that if you are a sole practitioner or a small firm and you're trying to get your leadership educated and you're trying to figure out, you know, different business strategies or contracts, you know, the coalitions just gives you a treasure trove of material that you can just get access to, which is just so beneficial.
Matt: Yeah. And Jeff, I mean, most of our most of our publications that come from the coalitions may be practice oriented. So you know, if they're for structural engineers or for the mechanical electrical group but a good chunk of them, I would say probably close to a quarter of them are business centered. So if you are, like you said, a small firm and you're looking for that HR document or you're looking for a basic on how to basic contracts and setting up a new office or some employee handbook issues, chances are somebody has already spent the time and capital in putting something that you might be able to at least make as a starting point as opposed to trying to reinvent the wheel. And it's, it's an invaluable resource for coalitions we find.
Host: And then I guess the last part is operations and how everything's being structured. Have there been any operational changes within the the coalition structure to note?
Kevin: One thing to note is when we started out coalitions years ago, some of those were councils to begin with. And we decided late last year that we wanted to have our, a consistent branding across our coalition. So the ones that had council in their name, we've, we've officially now renamed them to coalitions. So coalitions will appear everywhere in our branding and counsel is now being put to put the rest. We also last year recognized Mike Snyder from Dewberry as a recipient of our sixth annual Coalition Distinguished Service Award. That's something that we give out every year at the fall conference.
Host: All right. So that was kind of the top list of materials and things going on with coalitions. Is there anything else going on you guys want to add? A kind of free fire zone here about coalitions or, or anything you want to get across to our audience? Being our, our the leaders of our ACEC coalitions?
Kevin: This is Kevin and I, I would just recommend that anyone who's a member of ACC and especially new members who join, if they have any questions related to coalitions that they please reach out and they can find our contact information on the website. They can also contact Heather at ACEC headquarters. We're more than willing to share some of our personal experience in dealing with coalitions and how it's benefited our own organizations.
Host: Wonderful. Well, I want to thank you both for taking some time out of your day. And thanks again for giving us an update on ACEC Coalitions. It's all good news across the board and we're looking at growth and expanding our footprint of our coalitions in 2020. And thank you for being on the show and look forward to having you on again soon.