ACEC

2019 ACEC Community Service Award Recipient Tricia Ruby of Ruby + Associates

Engineering Influence welcomed Tricia Ruby of Ruby + Associates to the show to talk about her extensive community service work in the Detroit, Michigan area. Tricia was a recipient of a 2019 ACEC Community Service Award, which she received at the 2019 Annual Fall Conference in Chicago.   

Why Private Market Firms Should be Part of the ACEC Family with Erik Peterson

Engineering Influence sat down with Erik Peterson, ACEC Oregon's National Director and Principal at Peterson Structural Engineering to discuss the importance of ACEC membership for firms engaged in the private marketplace.  

ACEC's Women in Leadership Group at the 2019 Annual Conference in Chicago

Engineering Influence sat down with ACEC's Women in Leadership Group at the 2019 Fall Conference in Chicago.  The group discussed current trends in diversity and inclusivity at ACEC and in the engineering industry and the challenges that exist in creating a diverse engineering workforce.

An Interview with Rep. Rodney Davis (IL-13)

We were pleased to sit down with Rep. Rodney Davis (IL-3), the Ranking Member on the Highways Subcommittee of the House Transportation and Infrastructure Committee.  Rep. Davis shared his thoughts on the prospects of an infrastructure bill this Congress and discussed the challenges and opportunities for bipartisan compromise in the weeks ahead.  Davis also discussed his participation in the biennial "Longest Yard" congressional football game for charity played by Members of Congress and the Capitol Police.  The Members won the game, and both teams raised $300,000 for local police charities in the process.
Transcript:
Host: Welcome to another edition of Engineering Influence, a podcast brought to you by the American Council of engineering companies. I am very pleased today to be coming from you in really the, I guess the hideaway office of Congressman Rodney Davis of Illinois. I'm a member of the Transportation and Infrastructure committee, but more impo rtantly, the winner or, or the, at least the trophy holder of the 2019 a congressional longest yard football championship - which is a great achievement, which is a biennial football game being put on for charity by between the Capitol police and members of Congress. Tell us a little bit about the charity cause I don't think a lot of people realize that this happens outside of Washington, that this, this is a, this is a biannual event.
Rep. Davis: Well for other reasons the baseball game has gotten a lot more attention over the last few years after the tragic shooting that we all went through in June of 2017. But we also have a congressional football game for charity where instead of like in baseball where Republicans and Democrats play against each other, we play on the same team against the guards. It's kinda based on, as you said, the longest yard movie. Uwe're supposed to be the ones, the convicts, but we bring some pros into some former NFL pros that help us coach and, and play with us. Ubut we really appreciate what the guards do on a regular basis. But there's a Capitol police Memorial fund that was started after the death of two officers in the late nineties here in Washington, D C where they were killed by a mentally ill gunman who came into the Capitol before. We had a lot of the security protocols that we now see in place that Capitol Police Memorial Fund gets money from this football game of what we raise.
Rep. Davis: Also a couple of other charities that are dedicated to helping veterans who come home and maybe be suffering through post traumatic stress syndrome. These are the, the, the charities that are funded by the record, $300,000 plus that we raised last night.
Rep. Davis: Yeah, that's fantastic.
Rep. Davis: And I think it's a, it's a good lesson for everyone listening outside the beltway that at the end of the day members of Congress come together for a good cause. No, we really do. And, and in the midst of an impeachment inquiry beginning, we, Republicans and Democrats played together on a field last night for charity. And I just hope your listeners and the American people realize that there's a lot more of that than what you see and hear in the news on the 24 hour news cycle. That's a good thing. And I want to thank the Capitol police for what they do everyday.
Rep. Davis: They protect millions of people a year that come through this Capitol complex. I also saw the Capitol police officers firsthand when in the midst of a, a shooting in the midst of a tragedy those officers ran toward the gunfire while we were all running away. That's courage. But that courage that courage exists to every day. And we know they're doing what they're trained to do. But also last night it was a night that although I respect everything they do, I'm damn glad we beat, them.
Host: It's always good to bring the, bring the trophy home.
Rep. Davis: Oh yeah. No, I'm not carrying it by any of those Capitol police at the guard stations.
Host: Unless you have to get down on the floor of the house and do the special order to...
Rep. Davis: That'll be tomorrow, tomorrow.
Host: Um well like you said, you know, there's a lot going on in Washington right now.
Host: A lot of it is political, but there's one issue which of course I think is, is largely bipartisan. Um historically has been, and that of course - that is infrastructure. You serve as the ranking member on the highway subcommittee of the transportation infrastructure...
Rep. Davis: The largest subcommittee in Congress, 59 members, 59 members.
Host: And of course, right now everybody is looking to see what's gonna happen with infrastructure next. The Senate has moved on their version of service bill before they broke for August recess. And now that they're back, you know, that process continues. What's your perspective and view in the house? What, where do you see this process going and what would you like to see come out of the session?
Rep. Davis: Sure. I'm glad the Senate took the first crack at it because I think it sends a message to the democratic leadership who I believe are holding up Chairman DeFazio from being able to offer up a solution on the house side.
Rep. Davis: You know, Peter DeFazio's, a good friend of mine Eleanor Holmes, Norton, the treasurer of the subcommittee that I'm the lead Republican on. And then our ranking member, Sam graves. If we were just given a chance to sit down and across the table from each other, we could have a bill done in a matter of days, if not hours. We can do that. The Senate did that. They did their work. We had Senator Carper over to speak to our transportation stakeholders meeting that Earl Blumenauer and I run on a regular basis. He was there today talking about their successes. But again, it all comes down to two things. Now. Number one, it's how do we pay for it? Because that Senate bill, it addresses nothing in the pay force. I mean, we can put good policies together on the, on the the authorizing side just like they did, but the appropriating side and the tax writing side that's going to be the most, the biggest part of our discussion.
Rep. Davis: That's one issue that's holding up progress. The second one is impeachment. Look. I've been a staffer during the Clinton impeachment. I've never been here during an impeachment. And from what I remember, the 90s, nothing gets done during impeachment.
Host: Everything just grinds to a halt.
Rep. Davis: Absolutely. And that's unfortunate because we ought to be able to come together on infrastructure. That's why I asked to be the ranking member on the highways and transit subcommittee. I, I know we've got a highway bill coming. We got to get together and come up with solutions.
Host: So even though, like you mentioned, things got even more partisan or more political last night with, with the announcement of this inquiry, there still can be work done by the committees by staff and the members. Um as you mentioned, T&I's an authorizing committee, you can only do so much when it comes to the question of funding.
Host: Yeah. How is we'll have a say in that funding source. Yeah. But what do you think is, is how is Ways and Means approaching this on, on the house side? What do you think.
Rep. Davis: They're not.
Host: They're not at all right now.
Rep. Davis: And that is a part of the problem.
Host: Do you think it's at least on their agenda or you think there's some reason why it's, it's being held up or frankly I can give you my perspective and my opinion on why it's being held up.
Rep. Davis: I think Nancy Pelosi in the Democratic leadership don't want to talk about infrastructure. They don't want to pass the USMCA right now because it gives president Trump a win against President Trump. Something to go talk about and being able to work together and get things done that matter to American families. And that's just as an ma matter to a group of engineers.
Rep. Davis: It just doesn't matter to a group of road builders. It just doesn't matter to a group of transit officials or members of Congress. It matters to every single American out there to have a better transportation network to get to and from work. But what matters in middle America sometimes doesn't matter to leaders in politics out here. And that's what sad. That's what I think is holding this up. It's just a sheer will of the Democrats not to give the president in a win. And that's unfortunate.
Host: Now I think going back home and, and for the perspective of your constituents back home, a lot of us talk about, and we hear all the time in Washington, the negative side of, of infrastructure, the roads are crumbling and the bridges are falling down. The flip side of that is what we could actually achieve if we actually invest in America's infrastructure. What kind of benefits would your constituents get from a well funded and longterm infrastructure bill?
Rep. Davis: Well, they're, they're going to see updates to their local transportation systems that they in many of their local officials have been calling for for years, if not decades. It's, it's being able to implement those longterm visions that have been part of a planning process that may be out dates even as long as we've been alive in many cases. You look at, you look at a us 67, for example, in the Southern part of my district, that long term project could be completed with an infrastructure bill. We could get the rest of US 67 funded and then the new and then the new Delhi bypass funded around Jerseyville that could really then complete that four lane corridor from you know, basically from the quad cities all the way down to st Louis.
Rep. Davis: That was a longterm goal that was put in place long before I ever got involved in politics and policy. But you don't have to look too far to see the benefits of what could happen. And we also can't forget how long of a, an outlook we have to have when it comes to infrastructure. Dave Bender and I have known each other for a very, very long time. And, and when I first started working right out of college, I was involved in an accident on route 29 that killed a young lady on December 23rd and I was a third car in the accident. I had went around, and got sprayed with debris, but that death of melody travelers started a group called project 29 in Taylorville, my hometown. And in 1992 and moving into 1993, when that group was started, if you would have asked us if we were okay with that project, finally getting done in 2016, we would have said, keep your money.
Rep. Davis: But we didn't. We got the first ever federal investment that was invested in 1998 that helped put that project on to governor Edgar's five-year plan. Then we had Illinois first, they invested more dollars to get four lanes on both ends of that 18 miles. It still need to be four lanes put in place. And then as we moved federal dollars into that project and as we moved more state dollars into that project, it finally got done in 2016. 1993 to 2016 but nobody in my hometown that drives that road says we regret investing in that project, but we got to be patient and we've got to continue to invest because eventually you get it done. And that's what an infrastructure bill can do.
Host: That's a really good point. And I think that the length of time from inception to project delivery is also something that is always on our minds.
Rep. Davis: Clearly the engineering portion, that's what keeps it. That's what it takes too long.
Rep. Davis: Do you see any, I'm moving on and making sure that we engineers don't have sense of humor. You didn't laugh at all. Terrible, terrible. A change order.
Host:  But it's, it's, I guess the idea of cutting that project delivery timeline is something which the Senate address with one federal decision in, in, in their bill, in, in streamline of the environmental regulatory review process. How important will that be mirroring that or going further in the House?
Rep. Davis: You know, it's a step more than what we've already done. I mean, look, we have had so many successes in the six and a half years I'd been here when it comes to water infrastructure, when it comes to when it comes to water infrastructure, rail infrastructure, road infrastructure, we've done everything we can to really lessen the regulatory environment and speed up the permitting process.
Rep. Davis: Think about it with the Corps of engineers, when we first passed our first WRDA bill that we did when I got here to Congress in 2014, the average time it took from what I consider the paperwork process to the building process was 15 years average time. And I can only blame you engineer's for a portion of that. You know, so we, by law then what we did is we made sure that the Corps of Engineers knew that they had three years, three years. That's it. Otherwise, otherwise, you know, you're penalized. You got to three years by law to finish the project, that portion of the project. Then we get to the infrastructure investment itself much more quickly. Those are the types of things we've been able to do. So continuing down that process with what the Senate did I think is a great step. And we, we have to continue to identify where we lessen the regulatory burden and get to the point of laying concrete asphalt.
Host:  I just have two more questions cause I wanna I want to make sure that we have votes coming up and I know you want to make sure that you hit them. The one question I have again on WRDA really is, is we're expecting that of course in 2020 and.
Rep. Davis: That will be my third WRDA bill when, I take full credit for finally passing where to bills because before I got here in 2013, nothing happened. It was Oh seven. So you're welcome.
Host: No problem. I guess question on process, and this might be speculative, but do you think that chairman DeFazio's going to keep the same process that chairman Schuster put in with the Chiefs Reports or you know, or that like that change?
Rep. Davis: Well, certainly I'd like to go a step further. Look, I'd like to be able to have members of Congress try to address issues in their own district like we used to.
Rep. Davis:  I think it's a tragedy that when we, that we can't ask for any language. When it comes to war to authorization authorization, we are only authorizing dollars to be spent. No dollars are attached to a WRDA request. But somehow before I got here, those requests were labeled earmarks when they have $0 dollars attached. And what that has led to is been zero investment on the locks and dams in the Illinois and Mississippi waterways because I couldn't ask for it during the Obama administration and the Obama administration wouldn't ask to spend any money on it. So we had no recourse. It's all executive branch driven. Thankfully the Trump administration began to invest in the Illinois, Mississippi waterways. They're spending millions to upgrade LaGrange now. Now the problem I have is our producers are worried they won't get done in time. I'm like, that's a good problem to have.
Rep. Davis: Yeah, wait, we actually worried about spending money instead of getting money.
Host: So the final question I have for you is, did we win the game? Yes, we did. We're champions. So let a little bit later we're going to be meeting with some of our executives, some of our senior executives, Institute members. Yes.
Rep. Davis: Couple of them got to ride up on the elevator with me holding it.
Rep. Davis: They already gave you the elevator pitch.
Rep. Davis: They know I'm a champion.
Host: Did you let them hold the trophy? That's the big question.
Rep. Davis: I let them touch it.
Rep. Davis: All right. There you go. Hey, did given the fact that we talk a lot about the value of engineering and kind of the broader context of its, you know, value to society what's going to be your message to them when you, when you talk to them.
Rep. Davis: That we won the football game and clearly that's all I'm going to talk about.
Rep. Davis: You know, my messages, engineers by nature, by job, our longterm planners understand that we wouldn't, as policymakers, we wouldn't expect an engineer to give us a product that was not a longterm solution for the project they're working on or the building they're building. Don't expect us as policy makers to settle for short term funding solutions that don't address the volatility and the lack of funding and the highway trust fund and the long term outlook for what are, what are our you know, systems of mobility are going to look like in the next 10 years, which is basically a fancy way of saying don't just tell us to raise the gas tax.
Host: Got it. Well, Congressman, I really appreciate you being on the show. This is, you are the first member of Congress to appear on our podcast and it's a great way to kick it off.
Rep. Davis:  Congressman Rodney Davis, he's a leader on and off the football field and good luck today.
Rep. Davis: Can I give a special shout out to...
Rep. Davis: Please do.
Rep. Davis: Bender -
Host: David our director of political affairs here is sitting out on the, on the sideline here.
Rep. Davis: Well, David has been a longtime friend. You guys couldn't ask for a better advocate out here in Washington. Now. And I also want to give a shout out to his replacement. Kevin Hardell. Kevin and I have worked together for years. He's going to do a great job fill in the shoes that, that Dave left as big shoes to fill. But you know what? You guys couldn't have two better people representing you at the state and the federal level. And I appreciate being able to work with both of them and I know, I know what they're capable of. And you guys have got a long term bright future with association.
Host: Dave's been great. I've been working with them since they came on and it's just been a fantastic experience. So I appreciate your time and thank you very much.
Rep. Davis: Thank you. And remind Kevin, I'm a champion. I will definitely

Announcing a New Course from ACEC: Advanced Skills for Superior Project Managers: Challenges, Proficiencies, Techniques

Maureen Brown speaks with Howard Birnberg, the instructor for ACEC's new online course: Advanced Skills for Superior Project Managers.  The course begins on September 9th and is now open for registration.  More detailed information about the course can be found here. 
 

Private Industry Brief Update: Public Private Partnerships

ACEC's Erin McLaughlin provides an update on the new Private Industry Brief focusing on Public-Private Partnerships in the engineering industry. 
The Private Industry Briefs are available free to download on the ACEC website. Never miss an issue by subscribing here. 

Government Affairs Update: Senate Surface Transportation Bill & Water

ACEC's Government Affairs Update for the week of July 22, 2019.
In this week's episode, Matt Reiffer and Steve Hall discuss the upcoming Senate Environment and Public Works Committee markup of the America's Transportation Infrastructure Act, as well as the current status of water related infrastructure bills in Congress. 
Transcript:
Announcer: 00:00  Welcome to the first edition of the ACEC government affairs update for the week of July 22nd, 2019 we're coming into the last few days of session in Congress before the August recess and we're seeing action on infrastructure and water. Starting to heat up. Matt Riffer is our expert on surface transportation in our Washington office and he's here to give us an update on what's happening on surface transportation. Matt...
Matt Reiffer: 00:34 Thanks Jeff. After a year where we expected a lot of activity on infrastructure and series of fits and starts from congressional leaders meeting with the administration. And you know, we got all excited a couple of months ago about a top line number of $2 trillion that hasn't really materialized in any subsequent meetings or conversations. Uh, now this week we're finally, as you said, getting some real action and legislative productivity coming out. We are had meetings today with the senior staff from the Senate Committee on Environment & Public Works, that EPW Committee has primary jurisdiction over federal highway programs, uh, and they are and have been working on a reauthorization of federal highway programs under the Fast Act, uh, and they are set to release that bill, uh, next week Monday. And they briefed us and other stakeholders on some of the high level content of that bill today which is very exciting as it's a first step in a long process to reauthorize the FAST Act. The FAST Act doesn't expire until, uh, next year, September 30 of 2020.
Matt Reiffer: 01:47 But we want to get a head start on this, given the political dynamics of the election season and the time and effort it will take to get this over the finish line so that the EPW processes the first start, first step and it is a great first start. According to the committee, it's going to be a five-year bill authorizing highway programs at $287 billion, which is a 27% increase above the fast act level. It will also include, uh, a repeal of the rescission that's scheduled at the end of the fast act, which is gonna take 7.6, seven point $6 billion off the table from state and arbitrary. We lower the baseline for budget scoring, so that's an important step as well. And we're going to be supporting a standalone effort to get that done soon. The bill will be a threefold, a heavy emphasis on safety emphasis on, uh, bridges and on resilience.
Matt Reiffer: 02:56 Uh, there's going to be new programs, both formula based for states as well as discretionary funding, a directed to those initiatives. A lot of issues that ACEC and our member firms had been very active and engaged on. A, what we've been hearing so far is very positive based on the priorities that we have outlined. Um, next steps after EPW marks up their bill they'll have to work with the other committees of jurisdiction in the Senate. They only have highways. Uh, the banking committee has transit programs. The Commerce Committee has, uh, highway policy as well as commercial vehicles and safety programs. And then the most essential, uh, the finance committee has jurisdiction over revenues that flow into the highway trust fund. Uh, there is $100 billion hole in the trust fund over the next six years that needs to be filled plus the additional funding that would be authorized in this bill. Um, the EPW committee leaders, uh, are expressing confidence and optimism that they can pay for these funding increases with the user fee revenues coming into the highway trust fund and they'll be working with their finance committee colleagues and Senate leaders to get that done after the August recess. So again, first step, but a very important step, the first tangible legislative product that we've got to rally around as an industry, uh, and a top advocacy priority for ACEC. So it's a very exciting, uh, and encouraging, uh, development this week.
Announcer: 04:28 That's fantastic news and we're looking forward to seeing how the bill develops and what happens at the mark up and we'll be sure to hear about that more next week and leading into August. And Matt, thank you for that update. So FAST Act authorization is one of the highlight issues in Congress right now, but there are other issues moving forward, including water and related issues. And Steve Hall, our Senior Vice President of advocacy is with us to talk about those.
Steve Hall: 04:54 Yeah, so progress on the fast act is very encouraging as Matt indicated and at, as we've been talking about, uh, may be the vehicle that pulls a number of other priorities, uh, forward as a larger infrastructure package. But beyond surface transportation, Congress wants to do water through the Water Resources Development Act or WRDA they've got to finish the appropriations process. And we recently had a deal, a two year budget deal that plugs in some additional resources for appropriations and we hope and believe we'll at least maintain the increases in the infrastructure accounts from the last two year deal. Uh, but in addition to the fast act, individual water components are starting to move. Uh, the house has a bill that would reauthorize and significantly expand the clean water act, state revolving fund program or SRF program. $20 billion over five years. Uh, grants for combined sewer overflows and other issues.
Steve Hall: 06:01 They're still working through some issues with respect to, uh, the regulatory side, whether to extend, uh, permits from five years to 10 years. And we're providing some technical guidance to committee staff, uh, on that. Uh, there's other pending legislation that would create a water trust fund. All of these may find a home in a word, a bill that traditionally includes a new Corps of Engineers, project offer authorizations and other related matters, other things that are waiting in the wings. We have a legislation that would create a new category of private activity bonds for vertical projects. That's the sort of thing that could ride on a FAST Act reauthorization bill. We've got a couple of expired tax provisions that are critical for, uh, vertical projects, uh, and encouraging energy efficient building design. those need to be extended as well as another provision dealing with renewable energy projects. Again, these are the kind of things that could ride on a larger, infrastructure package. Uh, and then other issues, other priorities for ACEC...Reauthorization of the Export Import Bank. Interestingly, that was done in the context of the fast act in 2015. So could that be something that benefits from movement on a surface transportation in the house and the Senate shaping up to be a busy fall, uh, looking forward to getting some things over the goal line.
Announcer:  07:31 So a lot going on in Congress. They're going out of session, but we will not, we'll be following all of these issues with staff and the members throughout August. Uh, and always, always encourage our member organizations to do the same when the members are back in their districts. Uh, just because they're not in Washington doesn't mean they're not working and it's a good time to meet with them there. That's the first government affairs update from ACEC, one of the first of many. Thank you for joining us and happy August. [inaudible].
 

Engineering Business Index Update for Q2 2019

Announcer: 00:00 Last week, ACEC released its second quarter engineering business index survey or firm leaders. Gerry, what update do you have for us?
Gerry Donohue: 00:15 Well, the survey which is known in the industry as the EBI edged up slightly by 0.4 points to 62.6.
Announcer: (00:23) So a 62.6 score. What does that mean? Gerry Donohue: (00:25) The EBI is a diffusion index in which the responses of about 200 firm leaders to more than a dozen questions about the business market and financial performance of their firms are distilled down to a single number. A number above 50 signifies business expansion. All scores below 50 indicate contraction.
Announcer: 00:46  How does this score compare to past scores?
Gerry Donohue:  00:48 We've been doing the EBI for about six and a half years and it has moved in a relatively narrow band or my high of 68.9 in the second quarter of 2014 to a low of 58.5 in the fourth quarter of 2018 that pretty accurately tracks the market.
Gerry Donohue: 01:04  Over that period, business has generally been good for engineering firms and respondents. Concerns have focused on forces that create uncertainty. In the marketplace. For instance, the survey low in the fourth quarter of 2018 was due largely to worries about what tariffs and the trade war could do to the domestic market.
Announcer: 01:20 What are some of the other highlights?
Gerry Donohue:  01:22 Profitability and backlog are the big drivers in the Ebi and they reflect near term concerns, but long-term optimism, respondents expectations for firm profitability over the next three months and the next six months declined. But they're optimistic about increased profitability three years from now. Likewise, they reported that their backlogs have shrunk, but they expect them to grow over the next 12 months, which then feeds into those increased profitability expectations.
Announcer: 01:49 So we do ask questions about market sector. What do the private and public market sectors, what are they looking for?
Gerry Donohue: 01:56 Well, in the private sector, which is the, which accounts for about 80% of all construction firm leaders, expectations are mixed. They expect to see the industrial manufacturing education and land development sectors increase, but they're less optimistic about the energy and power, healthcare and building sectors and the public markets. They were more optimistic with five of the six sectors expected to improve. They said that the environmental sector and the building sector will improve the most followed by transportation, education and water and wastewater. They expect the healthcare sector to be flat.
Announcer: 02:29 You'll also ask firms to report on the impact of the 2017 tax cuts and jobs act. What are they saying?
Gerry Donohue: 02:35 Well, it's been over a year since the law took effect. It lowered the corporate tax rate from 35% to 21% and due in large part to ACEC lobbying created a new 20% tax deduction for pass through entities such as s corporations, partnerships and sole proprietorships.
Gerry Donohue: 02:51 More than a quarter of the respondents credited the new law with improving their bottom line. One said it was absolutely the right thing for business growth. While it's been made hiring harder and wages have gone up, profits have gone up as well. They also said that they've been able to increase investment in their firms. One firm leaders said that the lower tax rate incentivized his firm to retain more earnings and to improve their balance sheet. Other responses include, they've made new hires, they've grown their firm, and they've increased the value of their employee stock ownership programs. Something to note though, while almost all the comments on the new law were positive, several firm leaders were critical citing the subsequent rise in the federal budget deficits. One said the tax cut looks good in short term, but ultimately it's a terrible idea.
Announcer: 03:34 And you also ask from leaders about their biggest challenges of running an engineering firm. What did you learn?
Gerry Donohue: 03:40 Well, not surprisingly, more than 52% said that recruiting and retaining top talent is their biggest task. One said that they helped the economy and a talented high achieving, self-focused young workforce. Employee retention sits at the top of his worry list. Second was onerous contract demands from clients and owners. One firm leader said that clients increasingly viewing engineering services as a commodity and his firm constantly has to prove its value. Other challenges, we're distinguishing the firm from the competition, generating a suitable backlog, slow paying clients, and burdensome government regulations.
Announcer: 04:13 That's very interesting. So how do our members find the report?
Gerry Donohue: 04:17 Well, if you want to read the full report and look at the numbers behind the index, go to www.acec.org and scroll down to the engineering business index link.
Announcer: 04:26 That's great. So we look forward to your next update, Jerry, and thank you for coming in.